Sex, death and games - Printable Version
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Sex, death and games - David - Jan 13, 2003 12:03 AM
Maybe it's just me but I think someone needs to break the ironic trend in american entertainment of love of violence and fear of sex. I certainly am not suggesting a porno game but I just find this phenomenon interesting.
Sex, death and games - Dr. Light - Jan 13, 2003 06:50 AM
The act of creation is sacred, and should be treated with the ultimate respect. That respect cannot be given to it when it is made out to be vile, or displayed to an audience of people in return for money(i.e. a movie). The innocence of the young is also deserving of the ultimate respect, showing them gore and sex-filled movies strips them of that innocence at a young age is wronger than wrong. Be honest, now, how many "R" movies have you seen before you were 15? I lost count. Death is worthy of reverence as well, and is not something to be depicted in some el cheapo video game, or any game for that matter. Its why I like the old arcade days, the greater part of developers wouldn't even think about doing some nasty-minded, back alley game, Or for that matter some gore-filled, free-for-all.
So, my basic point is, that to put something that violates one of these sacred events of life in in a video game or movie is just plain wrong. I want to make a good game in a professional manner, and I know how I'm gonna do it.
I am no longer going to post to this thread or read it, for fear of starting a useless argument.
Sex, death and games - Zwilnik - Jan 13, 2003 10:45 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Dr. Light
Actually in the good old days, most developers thought about it, but there wasn't the graphics capability to do it. (although Soft Porn Adventure managed to do it sucessfully as a text adventure and that became the Leisure Suit Larry series , there were several rather bad graphical attempts at pornography and gore turned up wherever there was enough graphics memory for red sprites).
The big idea was usually 'shock factor' to try and get the free publicity and theoretical extra sales. However, it's debatable as to whether or not this ever worked.
There is a market for 'porno' games, although whether or not it's a viable market and whether or not you'd want to write a game for it is up to the individual developer.
Gore fests are the realm of the FPS, although a Sim B-Movie or Sim Horror Studio game might be a good laugh, if the gore was able to be bought by the bucketload and it was made with humour rather than nastiness.
Sex, death and games - Darkgold - Jan 13, 2003 12:20 PM
When on this topic I think its impossiable not to mention GTA3. We've all (or most) played that game. And look how well it sold. When regulations are put on games to keep 'bad' stuff out of games, when a game pushes those boundries people well play the game. Thats why I think GTA3 did so well.
Sex, death and games - Zwilnik - Jan 13, 2003 12:55 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Darkgold
I beg to differ on this one too Darkgold. GTA3 sold well because it was a spectacularly good game with a very good plot, very good controls, excellent use of the media (even more soo with GTA VC's 7 hours of radio stations) and one of the few really good implementations of an open ended game system out there.
If anything the 'mature' rating on it and the reputation it got (fairly enough, although I've seen much worse) of violence and mayhem may have actually lost it a few sales, as there are plenty of under 18s out there who want to play it, but their parents wouldn't allow them to buy it. (although this wouldn't be too much of a problem in the current PS2 market, as it's current demographic is quite mature).
The violence in the game (or the hype about it) would help get some extra publicity, but the fact that the game was really good fun sold it.
Sex, death and games - Darkgold - Jan 13, 2003 01:17 PM
I see what your saying. I've only played it once so I guess I was going off the media hype (they over do every thing.) Thanks for the correction.
Sex, death and games - David - Jan 13, 2003 06:20 PM
Quote:The act of creation is sacred, and should be treated with the ultimate respect. That respect cannot be given to it when it is made out to be vile, or displayed to an audience of people in return for money(i.e. a movie). The innocence of the young is also deserving of the ultimate respect, showing them gore and sex-filled movies strips them of that innocence at a young age is wronger than wrong. Be honest, now, how many "R" movies have you seen before you were 15? I lost count. Death is worthy of reverence as well, and is not something to be depicted in some el cheapo video game, or any game for that matter. Its why I like the old arcade days, the greater part of developers wouldn't even think about doing some nasty-minded, back alley game, Or for that matter some gore-filled, free-for-all.
How is it somehow better to be ignorant about sex and violence? That seems to be our fundamental disagreement here... I saw hundreds of R movies before I was 15... so what? I didn't think there was anyone left who was mortally offended by the mere thought of fantasy violence, sex and language.
Quote:I beg to differ on this one too Darkgold. GTA3 sold well because it was a spectacularly good game with a very good plot, very good controls, excellent use of the media (even more soo with GTA VC's 7 hours of radio stations) and one of the few really good implementations of an open ended game system out there.
I have to say that despite GTA's mature rating, I didn't really think it was a 'mature' game at all. On the other hand it is, as you say, very fun A significant part of the fun in these games is in the violence... i.e. have you ever tried playing gta3 or sof2 with blood turned off? It's just not as interesting.
Sex, death and games - Dr. Light - Jan 13, 2003 08:24 PM
If you had bothered to read the thread with any sort of dilligence you would have seen that I said "I've lost count", menaing that I've seen hundreds too. I was stating the way things are. As for remaining completely in the dark about certain things until we are 30 or so, no, I didn't say that either. Just wait until the young 'uns are mature enought to handle it in a um.. mature way. I wasn't starting an argument, or at least didn't intend to, just giving my moral viewpoint.
Oh well, so much for good intentions.
Sex, death and games - David - Jan 13, 2003 09:21 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Dr. Light
I know you lost count, but I was answering your question. I'm still confused about how that helps your point... are you saying that by seeing R movies you were somehow traumatized for life? It's not as if anyone forced you to watch them, or at least I hope not, and it doesn't seem like these movies brainwashed you into a killing machine or anything. Anyways I am still in the dark on how it's immoral to write games that include fantasy sex or violence...
Sex, death and games - Dr. Light - Jan 14, 2003 07:21 AM
There you go again. I said that I was just stating the way things are, nothing more, nothing less. Go back fifty years and it wasn't exactly like that then, but its like that now. However, I'm sure all them cowboys shootin them varmits might have left many little children emotionall scarred.
Second, if you don't understand why its wrong now, you probably never will.
Sex, death and games - w_reade - Jan 14, 2003 09:22 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Dr. Light
I don't want to have a fight, but perhaps the reason sex is usually presented so immaturely is because people are imperfectly shielded from it by embarrassed adults for most of their childhood, so they grow up (1) ignorant, sometimes dangerously so, and (2) with this ingrained view of sex as somehow shameful and dirty.
I would contend that sex and death are subjects with all the sacred gravity you claim, but that they have an enormous impact on human affairs, and so they simply cannot be avoided in real life. Many books and films, and even some games, treat these events with respect - and some even provide valuable insights that help one deal with them in real life. Most books/films/games don't, but that's not the point, and it doesn't especially bother me anyway.
I believe that both can be incorporated in "entertainment" without cheapening them - just because most depictions of sex or violence are trivial and thus arguably immoral, it doesn't mean that any depiction of sex or violence is automatically immoral.
For that reason, I can accept the argument against showing children some films/games (even though we'd all be serial murderers and rapists if they really had much effect), but I can't accept the argument that death and sex are entirely inappropriate subjects for children - if you present them maturely they are likely to respond maturely, and it may even help them to deal with them in later life.
Just my thoughtsÖ
Sex, death and games - Dr. Light - Jan 14, 2003 01:18 PM
Very intelligently put.
However, I would like to point say that the ten minute, precariously detailed loves scenes that have no relevance to the plot or storyline found in many movies is more what I'm arguing against. Forest Gump, for instance, is a good example of how to display it maturely. Backdraft, Desparado, and Enemy at the Gates however, show how it can be done wrong and make it seem dirty. To further the example, Enemy at the Gates was a true story, but they didn't have to do all that to get the point across.
Sex, death and games - Shivers - Jan 14, 2003 03:13 PM
i have no argument at all with sex. like a fart, sex is funny and part of life, laugh about it, but it is still part of life. i also agree, it is very pointless in many cases.
Violence on the other hand, is also part of...life...if you will, but is also often unnecessary. violence, i think is fun to fantasize about, and also a reality sometimes so my argument is that violence should either be abundant in very unreal (not the game) sort of ways or as part of life. As much as some people would argue, GTA does not realistically, portray daily life in a city. I would find it acceptable to have armed robberies sometimes in a bank sim, or large battles in a city builder/rts. but having a game/story revolve around this is kinda silly, in my opinion of course.
Sex, death and games - David - Jan 14, 2003 04:31 PM
Quote:There you go again. I said that I was just stating the way things are, nothing more, nothing less. Go back fifty years and it wasn't exactly like that then, but its like that now. However, I'm sure all them cowboys shootin them varmits might have left many little children emotionall scarred.
I know that's what you were stating... did you have a point? Before accusing me of not reading your posts, it would help if you read mine. If you've watched countless sex and violence-filled movies, and you turned out to be totally anti-movie-violence and anti-movie-sex, doesn't that sorta defeat your whole argument? Nobody is forcing kids to watch violence and sex, and they're not interested in it until they're "ready" for it. If you don't EXPLAIN why depicting violence and sex in entertainment is wrong now, then you're right, I probably will not understand...
Sex, death and games - Carlos Camacho - Jan 14, 2003 05:58 PM
Quote:Maybe it's just me but I think someone needs to break the ironic trend in american entertainment of love of violence and fear of sex. I certainly am not suggesting a porno game but I just find this phenomenon interesting.
This thread is about game design right? If so, all replies should be on the original post.
David, I think there have been some "fringe" games during my years that used sex to sell. Remember "Strip Poker" series? Leisure Suit Larry, that beat'em up by Access (before they started to make Golf games). Also during the "multimedia age", we had games like "Virtual Vixens" and many other porn-based games. (Still do for all I know.)
Thinking of how I would incorporate sex into your game "Black Shades"... Like "The Bodyguard", I get to sleep with my boss? For me, I don't need to have sex in games because it is something that is easy to do (get ), but handling a rocket launcher and shooting it down the street is something I can't do. (Well, I could go to Cambodia to one of those many camps and do that for a fee.) So, my point here is I think a large group of gamers want to play games that allow them to do something they can't do in real life.
That said, if you could build a game like The Sims, but improve the AI to such a level that it was like watching a real soap opera, then I would become interested. As "director", you have to use enough "spice" in your show to keep your ratings, but not too much that you lose sponsors or get people protesting. So, sex/love/relationships could be incorporated into a game like that, but I don't think I want to watch my two Sim characters "doing it" for 2 hours. Sure, the graphics at some point would make it like watching a video, but watching it "is lame" IMHO. (Kind of like the difference in watching sports and doing sports.) Perhaps, when technology gets to the point where you are ONE of the Sims (ie VR) then I think that genre will take off and be HUGE. You know, your typical FPS based on James Bond, and as Bond you get to do all the fun stuff as well. (Most likely even get to pick your co-stars.)
Back to the subject. All of you must come to Japan to get your eyes open about game dev and design. There is a HUGE genre of games aimed at teen age boys, which are like "cartoon adventures" (based on anime). Magazines devoted to it, and everywhere you look, naked manga babes. Some kids are really into it (some adults too I would guess.) I admit when I first saw them I was amused but it wore off quickly. There are also other type of harder games using other genres. They do in fact sell (in very often, in the open.) Footnote: Japanese TV and media are just as open. (ie walk into a video store go to the new videos section and see "Harry Potter" box next to "Marry Potter" box.)
Most interesting to note is all of this ultra-violent and porn games, comics, TV in Japan doesn't really raise flags. (Only the insert of sublimanal stuff that make 1/2 the kids in the country puke do :0 ) However, as sometimes it is exported to the US, it has to be "censored." Take "Sailor Moon" cartoon of yesteryear. Lots of taboos for US TV.
One negative side to these type of games in Japan. The majority of them portray females as:
a. Sex slaves
b. Under 15-year old nymphos
c. E-Cup bust size (often combining a and b)
d. Under 12-year old innocents
For many grade school, teens and young men, this builds a "wrong image" of females in their minds. We had a little taste of this with Lara Croft, but that was pretty tame compared to what is in Japan. They make females like that because a.) the devs are geeks themselves b.) their target market are geeks.
I recommend you read the position paper by "Women Developer's Association" (something like that) on sex, porn, advertising, etc in the business. Their president once said, "We aren't against women that show their femenity (spell?) in games, but are against the silly usage of it. For example, an RPG has a dwarf, thief and female warrior. The men are all wearing plate armor while the female is wearing a wire-thin bikini. Why would she do that?" Not exact words but you get the gist.
Well, I will sign off by saying -- Make the games you want to play. That said, keep in mind if you want to reach the largest possible market (or ever get a sweet heart deal like Brian), shoot for the "norm." Unless your market is Japan.