Kids can't make fun games anymore.

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Post: #16
I definitely agree with you that there will be competition along the way. However, if we all say "There's no point in doing this, there will be competition!" then there will be no competition and no product at all. GameSalad is already much farther along than I expected anything to be at this point, but that is ultimately a good thing. Options are good.

Your point about art is very good. I think that if the supplied set is too small, the app will get old fast. However, that would be a problem for a much more mature app.

Also, about speed - gw0rp is written in Python and it runs at 300 FPS if you take vsync off. It's pretty complicated. I'm not worried. Lua is mighty fast, but it it's too small and odd for me to trust it for a large project. (What strange data types...) There are other, more specific reasons, too - for example, the object model, and the fact that I'm already familiar with it.

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Post: #17
Quote:Introducing people to programming is teaching them a language, one they can't use when interacting with other people, this isolates them.

Wow, never thought about it that way.
Indeed since i started programming I'm no as social as I used to be, for better or for worst.

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Post: #18
Good grief. This thread is a little too long for me to read it all right now. Rasp

I have one fundamental quesiton though for diorna..... Do you want to make it so kids don't need to program at all, or do you want to make something that requires little programming, or even just simpler programming?
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Post: #19
FreakSoftware Wrote:Good grief. This thread is a little too long for me to read it all right now. Rasp

I have one fundamental quesiton though for diordna..... Do you want to make it so kids don't need to program at all, or do you want to make something that requires little programming, or even just simpler programming?

No programming at all, except when the existing behaviors don't provide specific desired functionality. Ideally, that situation will happen only rarely, or when a user is making an odd game.

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Post: #20
diordna, I agree that it's not a great reason *not* to make something just because it has already been made. Just do it and see what you can come up with! A lot of times projects start off in one direction and morph into something else -- for better or worse.

igame3d Wrote:AnotherJake, to answer your question, my BASIC would be MS-Basic version 1 and extended. Maybe a parser would be better than interpreter, treat the old code like data and convert to specificly designed Lua functions and tables that are editable, since the trouble of learning BASIC is really not productive in the long haul at this juncture in history.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking in terms of re-making yet another general-purpose BASIC. Instead, I was thinking of re-purposing it to be used as a sort of in-game command console's version of a shell scripting language. Not another Chipmunk BASIC, if that's what you mean. It'd be cool to have a semigraphics throwback for the fun of it, and maybe so a person could type in some old code, but that isn't the core focus I'm thinking of. I don't think it'd be interpreted line by line either. I suspect I'd probably prefer to compile it to bytecode at RUN, similar to Lua. Speaking of Lua, it shouldn't be any problem to hook right into that too for further extension.

Quickly scanning through those Aquarius links, yeah, that looks pretty much like what I had in mind in terms of syntax. It's basically the same stuff we had on the original CoCo (of course it would be since that was also MS BASIC).
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Post: #21
diordna Wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that an 8 year old can learn Cocoa on his/her own - nay, make games with it? I had enough trouble with BASIC!

Blink

No.
I'm saying that it is very easy to get a simple application(not game, as stated in my post) up and running(i.e 'Hello World').
I'm not trying to say that Cocoa already serves the purpose you're creating this application for.
I am saying that Cocoa is really easy to get started with(ever hear of the 15-minute text editor).

Anyway, I'm not saying there isn't a market for what you're planning on making, and I like the idea. Good luck, and ignore my ramblings about Cocoa and app development. Smile

- Lincoln Green
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Post: #22
As long as you stick to one type of game your project should not be overly difficult. If you try to make it general purpose like I did,
you end up having to code every possible scenario, and then someone asks for a
means to make a game that you probably wouldn't want to make.
I post "it makes 3D games" and someone asks me to show them how to make point and go Myst type games, yuck.

Make sure there is an audience and you know them.
A good place to start is at Will Hogben's Escort Wing forums, the folks there mod Escort Wing.

They are a good audience test for feedback and to gauge how far people want to go with a SEUCK. They have been active for what, four years?
Also, you could fill your content basket via generous folks from that crowd and thus removing an obstacle for the newbies.

I'm pretty sure Will started working for Freeverse via his success on Wingnuts.
You could be next.

AnotherJake I'm splitting this discussion to BASIC for Fun, we can babble technicalities there.
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Post: #23
igame3d Wrote:Ramble ramble ramble...
Actually, Will is working for Freeverse for Escort Wing 2. And by the way, you'll find that the first Escort Wing is credited to Will Hogben and Stephen Johnson, i.e. whogben and diordna. Wink

Anyway, there is a small existing community elsewhere that I intend to tap when I have something to show.

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Post: #24
diordna Wrote:Actually, Will is working for Freeverse for Escort Wing 2. And by the way, you'll find that the first Escort Wing is credited to Will Hogben and Stephen Johnson, i.e. whogben and diordna. Wink

oooooooh smack! LOL Man, I didn't know either of you guys worked on that. Cool!
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Post: #25
Heh, I only play tested Escort Wing a few times during UDG.
I'm pretty sure I reported 'Diordna' in the credits as a bug.

I kid of course, its been a long time, but I remember now Will mentioning that way back then.

I thought Escort Wings 2 had been rolled into WingNuts 2.
Its still not done?
All these wings confuse me.
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Post: #26
Oh, this thing needs a name. If someone has one, I would like to know.

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Post: #27
Python Shoot 'Em Tool
PSET..haha thats a basic command.

PyBogey

Pythons on a Plane

Winged Serpent
Quetzcotal (yeh!)

Beginners Action Game Engine Library (BAGEL)

Make Action Games Engine (MAGE)

MacSEUCK (that sounds awful)

Intro To Action Games (iTAG) woot!

Rootin' Tootin' Shootin' Tool. (RTST)

Ok I'm out of ideas.(OIOOI)
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Post: #28
Quote:If little Timmy wants to make Pong, he has to learn a language and an API when all he wants is three objects, two counters, a win condition, and a Go button. It should not be this hard!

I agree, and not just because my name is Tim.

I was in the process of designing something earlier that was an intermediary tool for designing games in REALbasic (w/ SuperSpriteSurface) called Spriter.
Screen Shot
Essentially you would use the program to create all of the animations for a game sprite. It was set up for frame by frame timed based animation, so you could change the sprite properties (pos, rot, scale, opacity) on a particular frame along with the duration of the frame. You could also create collision boxes, and change their properties (pos, rot, scale) frame by frame. IMO it was pretty easy to use, but then again, I created it. Rolleyes

Here's an example of something I did in literally 30 min. (keep in mind I didn't do the graphics, they belong to Reiner Prokein)
Game Screen Shot
You can download it here: Download

I used it to create my uDG prototype as well, which took me around 6 hours to create.
My goal was to make it so that the person creating their game would only have to use two lines of code to create their sprite.
Code:
Player = New MyGameSprite
  
  //Call the GetSpriteSheet function in Player to get all of spriters work.
  Player.GetSpriteSheet("HeroSprite")

Anyway, enough of about what I made.Bored
I'm down to help out in any way I can with the project. Of course I'll have to wait till after uDG to start working on it.

If this project is going to be for children you should consider making it like a more advanced version of Cocoa DR3 (I guess more like a CocoaDR3/GameSalad)
That's the tool I used when I was 10. I knew zero things about programming, but was able to create some fun games. It was later replaced by StageCast, which kinda blew because it didn't allow you to create stand-alone apps.Cry
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Post: #29
Another idea that occurred to me: If this is successful, there will be a lot of kids learning on it, making cool things, running into limitations, and then moving on to something more powerful. I think we should encourage this by using concepts that will still be applicable in more powerful/lower level environments wherever possible, and openly acknowledging the limitations the tool will have. If we think of this as both a creation tool in itself and a springboard to help ease the transition to more powerful creation tools, we create a better ecosystem than if it's simply an end in itself.
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Post: #30
tcIgnatius, I actually spent a lot of time in Cocoa DR3 when I was in middle school. Good memories. I wish I could still run Classic so I could test it again.

Alex, I am in total agreement.

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