uDG Size Limit Rule

Luminary
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Post: #16
iPhone doesn't have significant space requirements; plenty of iPhone games are in excess of 100MB. Whether that's "good" or "acceptable" is up for debate I suppose, but in any event, this is a *Mac* development contest, whatever the future may hold.

MP3s are about a MB a minute at acceptable quality. Couple of 6 minute songs in a Unity app and you're well over 20MB.

Anyway, "but why would anyone care" is *not* a good reason to keep the restriction. Take it as given that somebody cares (probably a Unity user).

There is no reason to have the restriction, therefore it should be removed. End of story.
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Post: #17
I don't know if that's entirely the end of the story. The more I think of it, the winning argument alone, for no size restriction, should be that uDG isn't hosting. Too bad this is being debated *after* the contest officially started... Sad

OneSadCookie Wrote:iPhone doesn't have significant space requirements;

If you want to distribute over the cell network you have to stay under 10 MB. Although it is true that does not preclude one from distributing more than that, and as aarku pointed out, there are popular games which are larger than that, it is still something to consider.

The fact that iPhone can be considered part of the "Mac" game arena does have some play in this, to me, although this point is obviously debatable depending on your point of view. I'm not sure how much that should play into size restriction for this particular contest, so I'd be willing to let go of any iPhone influence.

Quote:Anyway, "but why would anyone care" is *not* a good reason to keep the restriction. Take it as given that somebody cares (probably a Unity user).

What I was rhetorically asking is, "Why would anyone need more than 20 MB?", not "why would anyone care".

You're right that it takes a MB a minute for audio. I was thinking that no one would really need more than 10 minutes of audio, which would leave an enormous amount of space for app and graphical assets (in my view 10 MB for PNGs, JPGs and app is *lots*). But, you're right that Unity takes up a basic amount all on its own and I hadn't really considered that in my mental equation (probably because I'm not a Unity user, although I've helped sell more than a few licenses for them, so don't think I'm not in support).

So then let's say that 20 MB is too little and there is a need to come up with some other, higher, restriction to accommodate things. That leads to the question: If it is an arbitrary limit, why restrict at all? To which you're saying: There is no need to restrict at all, *end of story*. Perhaps you are correct.

Let's try a few more thoughts:

- How about considering dial-ups? Are they still relevant?
- Bandwidth does still cost money, albeit not much, but it isn't free. Could an entrant with more money to spare on hosting have an unfair advantage over one who couldn't?
- How about the voting process? Would the fact that many might skip downloading an 800 MB game add to their vote because less voted on it? Could it unfairly skew results?
- I am somewhat not happy about downloading 200 MB games, personally (unless they're AAA). Maybe I'm stuck in the stone-age, but to me, 200 MB here and 100 MB there tends to plug up my 80 GB disk, so I tend to avoid them in the first place. Could there/should there be a voting category for how much I dislike the size of a game?

While I agree that a game's market success is about the finished product, not the nuts and bolts, the contest is being held by an online community which supports the technical aspects of game development. It seems like we should at least be able to vote for/against a game in some category for technical reasons, like: I would vote a game down a bit just because it is using tga files when it should be using pngs instead. Things like that. I don't know how practical that would be. I guess this is what leads me to thinking that an arbitrary size restriction gives blanket coverage of the technical considerations.
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Post: #18
I agree the restriction is pointless.

Showing restraint for file size has no meaning and no value, the focus should be on game play and quality of the content. Nobody, absolutely nobody, plays games based on their file sizes.

In the end larger files sizes will be a hardship for the developer who has to pay for hosting more than the 1% of Mac users still using a 56k modem. Since the source has to be open anyway, there's no reason not to just host the game at sourceforge and let them rake in thousands of dollars in advertising fees from all the downloads, as opposed to getting raped in over charges as I experienced.

Drop the file size limit. Its been a contentious issue for every UDG.

All the top ten downloads at macgamefiles are above 30 megabytes, except the patch for SimCity. Most of the games are over 200 or 300 megs.
Those are just demos, of the quality the game playing public is looking for.
Halo Demo runs at 122megs, its been in the top ten for three years, 475,492 downloads. It contains all of two levels. Will any uDG entry knock Halo from its three year reign of the top ten?

When was the last time a person posted a help wanted at IDG requesting a developer who is really awesome at limiting file sizes? "Would be great if you can program, make assets, and manage deadlines, but what really matters is that you can fit your full game under 20 megs, we pay big for that"...sound familiar?
Didn't think so.
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Post: #19
igame3d Wrote:Nobody, absolutely nobody, plays games based on their file sizes.

I do... [sound of crickets] ... If it's too large, I often won't bother to wait for it to download.
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Post: #20
Why are you waiting for downloads?
Click the link, it downloads in the background.
You can do tens of dozens of other tasks while any file downloads no matter the size, except maybe play an online game without getting some unwanted lag.

My download folder is measuring 12 Gigs right now.
I don't recall waiting for anything.

Go wild, click a lot of big downloads, use the internet like the whore it is.
Cheap dirty internet, yeah.
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Post: #21
Even if download size negatively affects the perception of your game, I still don't think it should be a rule. It's a risk you as a developer should be able to choose to take. Then again, I am a libertarian.
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Post: #22
igame3d Wrote:Go wild, click a lot of big downloads, use the internet like the whore it is.
Cheap dirty internet, yeah.

LOLLOL

I don't know what the deal is with me and game downloads. Usually when the mood strikes me to download a game, I want to play "right now", or at least in a few minutes. It's an impulse sort of thing. I don't like downloading games to play at some later time. The 360 drives me nuts with > 1GB demo downloads too, although since that machine is dedicated to gaming, I will more often download a bunch of stuff to play later on that. My preferred size is <= 50 MB. I can't explain the psychology behind it. Silly perhaps, but even if I can be administered therapy for my psychosis, the point to take away from this is that size/speed/usage perceptions do vary from person to person.

But beyond that, I keep my download folder empty, and manage my limited disk space. 80 GB gets eaten up surprisingly fast with media files these days.

geezusfreee Wrote:Even if download size negatively affects the perception of your game, I still don't think it should be a rule. It's a risk you as a developer should be able to choose to take. Then again, I am a libertarian.
I totally agree, but since this is a contest, I think there should be a way for the negative perception of the download size to affect how your game rates in the contest. I guess that's where I'm coming from. Obviously since we're debating it (yet again, like in past years), it *must* have some measurable impact, somehow. It's a good idea to take your delivery time and package into account (your distribution?). Size != download duration, so simply limiting size to 20 MB doesn't really cover that. I can just as easily cancel a 3 MB game for taking 10 minutes to download as a 200 MB game taking the same amount of time. Although, chances are 200 MB takes longer than 2 MB, but still... This is another good reason why a size limit may not have the intended effect.
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Post: #23
igame3d Wrote:Why are you waiting for downloads?
Click the link, it downloads in the background.
You can do tens of dozens of other tasks while any file downloads no matter the size, except maybe play an online game without getting some unwanted lag.

Lucky you is all I can say.

For some reason if ever my Mac downloads a large file it grabs the entire internet bandwidth for the computer. Forget about looking at web pages or email or chatting on line while a download is going on. No idea why it does it but it just does.
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Post: #24
If uDG isn't hosting the files that should be more reason to have a limit. You don't want entrants' quality to be affected by how much bandwidth they can afford. (Sure there's free/donated hosting but it's one more thing to go wrong with the download experience).

And if you want votes to be fair (and numerous) a size limit will help ensure that voters download as many as possible.

I very rarely download a game bigger than, say, 15MB unless I know it's going to be worth it.
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Post: #25
Alrighty:

I want to enter the contest; but I will be using the Unity3D game engine.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I just deleted ALL assets from my project. I then imported a (smaller than)10k poly model, and one script that plays animations for said (fbx) model. Upon building the project(Universal Binary Standalone), I get a 40 MB app.

One 10k model, no textures, and one 10-line script.

Am I doing something wrong, or will I not be able to enter the contest because of the file-size limit?

EDIT: Building an intel standalone, compressing the textures(of which there are none) got it down to 14.6 MB.

Still… When adding assets, that gets over 20 MB.

- Lincoln Green
http://www.binkworks.com/
Luminary
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Post: #26
It's about the entrant making a business decision. If they can't afford the bandwidth, and don't want to host on Google Code or SourceForge as iGame3D points out, then they need to limit the size of their own volition.

If, as you say, people care about download size then it's up to the developer to decide how that will affect them. If, as you hypothesize, fewer people will download a larger game, and some will vote 0s due to failed downloads, that's up to the developer to weigh against whatever they expect to gain from the larger file size. It's completely self-regulating.

Hairball: People frequently ship Unity games under 20MB, I don't know what you're doing but this behavior doesn't seem usual to me Rasp
DoG
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Post: #27
Also, in the past people did step in to help out others with hosting problems.
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Post: #28
Who actually decides this? 'Cause it's all good us arguing, but it would be swell if somebody with power were to venture in here and have a looksy.
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Post: #29
Zwilnik Wrote:Setting a 20mb limit helps the contestants because it forces them to limit the art and sound and be realistic about what resources they can properly create and polish within the contest's 3 month time limit.
This is admittedly a bit snarky, but I think it furthers my point so I'll apologize in advance. How long was Flick Fishing developed in? That's a 28.2 MB download on iTunes with phone-resolution textures. It is wrapped in DRM which probably is increasing the size, admittedly.

kiwiMark Wrote:Who actually decides this? 'Cause it's all good us arguing, but it would be swell if somebody with power were to venture in here and have a looksy.
Carlos keeps control over it all I'm sure like normal. Please someone feel free to shockingly and dramatically correct me. Smile

Hairball183 Wrote:Am I doing something wrong, or will I not be able to enter the contest because of the file-size limit?
It sounds like you're not zipping (or whatever type of compression) your built game and looking at that file size instead of the file size when you Get Info on your .app. You can definitely build a good deal of content into a 20 megabyte compressed Unity standalone, even if it's a UB. All of our recent work, for example.

Cheers,
-Jon
⌘-R in Chief
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Post: #30
<insert long conversation from IRC here>

Options:

1)
- Make sure Carlos beats sponsors into shipping directly to winners*
- uDG has a size limit and hosts files (using Amazon S3 or something similar and cheaper) using entry fees to cover costs


2)
- Carlos does not beat sponsors into shipping directly to winners, and consumes entry fees for "shipping" and uDG hosting
- Entrants are on their own for hosting, either using their own servers or a service like Google Code, github, or Amazon S3 to host their code and downloads, and provide uDG with a direct-download link**. (Free github I don't think allows direct-download, but Google does)


3)
- Carlos does not beat sponsors into shipping directly to winners, and consumes entry fees for "shipping" and uDG hosting
- A community Amazon S3 account is created, and those who can't do their own decent hosting, use it.



--

* All of the prizes so far are software and digital goods/services, all but of a few of which don't require shipping anyway. The entrance fees obviously don't need to be used to ship downloads.

** Nobody in the contest should be using a free service that requires downloaders to have an account, or jump through 8 links to download the file. That's just guaranteeing your entry will not be downloaded.
Thread Closed 

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