uDevGames 2008

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Post: #46
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model

It's not that everyone's in it just for the prizes (I know that if I find time to join, it certainly will not be for any contest prize), but most of us don't give a rip about *how* anyone goes about developing their game(s). The more complex the process, the less I'm interested. The goal should be: make a cool game and everyone will vote on which one is coolest. How you get there is up to you.
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Member
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Post: #47
[guys, i can't read minds. you have to explain your points]
so how is your idea less complex and more likely to produce cool games?

did you read the bit where you don't have to participate in each step? you decide which parts you could be arsed to do?

why do you think 'most of us' don't care about the development cycle?

nich
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Post: #48
I found that in 2004 the Developer Blogs built into the uDG site were a really awesome way of getting a peek inside the "how" of nearly every entrant, without forcing anyone into a particular model. I also enjoyed using it to build up some buzz.

Side note: I'd be interested if anyone has these saved somewhere. Perhaps they can be re-published for uDG '08?

Justin Ficarrotta
http://www.justinfic.com
"It is better to be The Man than to work for The Man." - Alexander Seropian
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Luminary
Posts: 5,143
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Post: #49
nich: What you've described is a waterfall model, where each phase comes before the next. This doesn't actually work in practice for all sorts of reasons (follow some links from the Wikipedia article for discussion). Software development, and in my experience, game development *in particular* is always iterative. So, not only would such a model for the contest actively work against anyone actually producing an entry, it would turn off people who know that the model doesn't work from even entering.
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Post: #50
i also enjoyed the dev blogs.

these days a lot of it is done through video. eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eshQHImPfKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df5Hak_h3Rg
and all the ones in related vids.

osc: i see. you've kinda misunderstood what i was trying to explain. i guess i was a bit over-confident in thinking i could explain it in one post on a text forum. it seems that you are aware of the waterfall process and therefor have attached it to what i was describing as that is what you know. had you been aware of another process that also resembled it, you may have attached it as well. (i'm probably wrong, this is how it appears to me).

anyway, i was just suggesting we do something different. not for the sake of being different.

thought: maybe don't think of it as waterfall, but rather a number of separate comps, that intertwine. eg. the coding part would merely have 'rules' that require you to use a concept and media from previous comps. this would save carlos with having to come up with ideas that will inevitably be pew pew'd(re: particles/pathfinding/etc)
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Post: #51
nich Wrote:thought: maybe don't think of it as waterfall, but rather a number of separate comps, that intertwine.

Right, that's too complicated.

Quote:why do you think 'most of us' don't care about the development cycle?
It's not that we don't care about "the development cycle", but that most of us don't have the interest or patience to all do it in one particular fashion. I know from experience (Inkubator) that every developer here has different thoughts on how to go about making a game. It is *very* difficult to herd us in one direction. Not that it's impossible, but it does add substantially to the likelihood that the contest will fall apart. The contest should consist of one stage: make a cool game.

The dev blogs and post-mortems are a great way to share *how* each game was done, after the fact. I just think it's a terrible idea to attempt to get everyone to be on the same development track, using the same methodology/process/whatever. It's just not practical.
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⌘-R in Chief
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Post: #52
What's the *point* of restricting *how* you write your game, nich?

It's a terrible idea. If I'm forced to only use the media from the second stage of the contest, and during the third stage I found or created something that would sound/look/work much better, I *couldn't* use it? What on earth is the logic behind that? Give me a start and end date and let me do what I want. I don't need you over my shoulder telling me I did things out of order.

And if it's "optional" as you say, then there cannot be a point.

uDG proved to be successful. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.
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Post: #53
shit you guys are negative and haven't really understood what i'm saying at all. i never said my idea was concrete or "it's this or nothing".

you guys are basically saying, let's just do everything as we normally do and somehow it will be good/cool. if that's the case, why aren't you all making cool games right now, all the time?!?!? oh you are? i forgot that you released ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, you guys make games?

and to be frank, i do not think the last udg was successful. i can't even think of one of the entries.
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Post: #54
nich Wrote:why aren't you all making cool games right now, all the time?!?!? oh you are? i forgot that you released ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, you guys make games?

Sorry for going off topic but this post does raise a useful suggestion.

Why don't we have a roll of honour somewhere on the site that lists the games that have been released by members of the site over the years? It should list commercial games and shareware type games. I don't want to cause offence to anyone but it should just be proper releases and not include all the Space Invader type clones people wrote over the years as they learned their skills.

It would be worth doing to show how useful iDevGames and its various spin off contests has been to people over the years.

I suggest a section on the main website and not just a thread which will get lost or distracted after a couple of weeks.
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Luminary
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Post: #55
I while ago I raised the idea of an "alumnus spotlight" kind of a thing, featuring a bio and portfolio of a successful member each month. Seems similar.

And nich, you're very rude. Most of us here either have day jobs which keep our game programming time to a minimum, or are just getting started. Producing games is time-consuming, and almost nobody can afford to do it full-time.

Every uDG has been massively successful. The point isn't to produce memorable, or even good, games (though that's obviously a nice bonus); the point is to motivate people to *complete* and *release* a game that they otherwise might not.

We're not saying "the old way or nothing", but your idea was (apparently) born of complete inexperience, and/or calculated to reduce the probability of *anyone* producing *any* game at all. That's not an acceptable framework for the competition to work within. If you can see a way to modify it such that that is not the case, the discussion could continue.
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Post: #56
nich: Perhaps we would be more receptive to your ideas if you would explain why you want these changes? What is wrong with the way uDG has been done in the past? Why do you think it was unsuccessful?

Personally, I am very happy with how the past uDGs went. They were fun, lots of great games were made, people learned a lot. What more can you ask for with only a 3-month dev period?
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Post: #57
nich Wrote:i forgot that you released ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, you guys make games?

A quick look through the Announcements board will show quite a few games released by iDevGames members.
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Moderator
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Post: #58
nich, your rather abrasive rhetoric won't help sway any opinions. It's not a conspiracy against you or some vortex of negative attitudes here. Doing the contest in stages is just a bad idea. No need to be upset about it.
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Post: #59
nich Wrote:shit you guys are negative and haven't really understood what i'm saying at all. i never said my idea was concrete or "it's this or nothing".

I understand it just fine. I just don't agree with it. Don't take it personally. What you're suggesting can be indirectly accomplished already, by developers realizing their own strengths and weaknesses and collaborating at their own discretion. It works great, and no one has anything forced on them.

nich Wrote:if that's the case, why aren't you all making cool games right now, all the time?!?!? oh you are? i forgot that you released ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, you guys make games?

and to be frank, i do not think the last udg was successful. i can't even think of one of the entries.

Two games from uDG 2004 got on the Gamasutra front page. The contest was followed pretty closely by major Mac news sites (Inside Mac Games, MacWorld) and quite a few general gaming sites. More than a few games are being sold commercially. Some for a lot of money. (Chopper and Solarquest are two 2004 entries on the App Store top 100 list now, presumably making some serious scratch, along with GL Golf, an entry from a previous year.) And, working in the industry now, I am always bumping into other uDG veterans.

I do agree though that games from the contests should always be available for download, with source if possible. TIGsource has their own database of indie games, which makes it very easy to find games by their members. I still have every single game from 2004 on my home laptop, and would be willing to send them along. I didn't grab everyone's source, though.

Justin Ficarrotta
http://www.justinfic.com
"It is better to be The Man than to work for The Man." - Alexander Seropian
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⌘-R in Chief
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Post: #60
JustinFic Wrote:I still have every single game from 2004 on my home laptop, and would be willing to send them along. I didn't grab everyone's source, though.

http://www.idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8065
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