AnotherJake Wrote:I find the "vastly slower" scenario to be somewhat unlikely though.

Ooooh, third time quoting myself in this thread... You can't stop me!

Actually, I take my previous statement back. Still NDA discussion, but let's talk about it from the point of view that OpenGL ES is designed to run on Embedded Systems (the ES part of it). That would mean that the emulator might have to use a very different rendering technique than what we use on traditional desktop hardware. Specifically, some embedded GPU technology uses tile based rendering instead of the familiar stream based rendering. How that major difference could be emulated without using a full software renderer might be a problem (IOW, might not be able to get much, if any, hardware boost for the emulator), and hence we may very well see a comparatively slow emulation. But still, I'm currently using dual 2 GHz. For a 480 x 320 fixed point (presumably) frame buffer, you'd think you could get at least a somewhat reasonable speed, purely in software.

You can do 90% of the development today. Create a NSOpenGLContext with the software renderer, and compile your app against one of the headers at http://khronos.org/opengles/ rather than the desktop GL header.

Use your ADC membership to figure out which header you need

You'll need to write some basic wrappers to, for example, call glOrtho from glOrthof (see OES_single_precision), but for the most part that'll get the compiler to tell you that you're using a reasonable subset of the functionality. When you actually have the ability to run GL code on the iPhone or Sim, the remaining changes should be fairly minor (replace NSOpenGL with EAGL, maybe gain some access to new extensions).

AnotherJake Wrote:Ooooh, third time quoting myself in this thread... You can't stop me!

We have three; Do I hear a four? Going once…

AnotherJake Wrote:You can't stop me!

Four! Yeehaaw!

Frogblast Wrote:You can do 90% of the development today. Create a NSOpenGLContext with the software renderer, and compile your app against one of the headers at http://khronos.org/opengles/ rather than the desktop GL header.

Use your ADC membership to figure out which header you need

You'll need to write some basic wrappers to, for example, call glOrtho from glOrthof (see OES_single_precision), but for the most part that'll get the compiler to tell you that you're using a reasonable subset of the functionality. When you actually have the ability to run GL code on the iPhone or Sim, the remaining changes should be fairly minor (replace NSOpenGL with EAGL, maybe gain some access to new extensions).

That's an interesting idea! I think I might actually try that later on if I get a chance. That won't simulate the effects of a tile-based vs. a streaming renderer (among other things, I'm sure), but at least it should give a decent indication of what can and can't be done in ES vs. vanilla GL. Also would need to manually take into account other constraints such as memory usage, as outlined in the Apple docs.

Hey, I just had another question, or thought: I was saying earlier that the cheapest I could see getting into iPhone development without an OpenGL ES simulator/emulator for it would be to purchase an iPhone and the service plan with that, but what about an iPod Touch instead? Would that be allowed? I missed anything at ADC that said it *had* to be an iPhone... If so, then that would at least bring the entry-level price down to $400 at current prices (including the $100 to join the club) which would not be free, but less dramatic.

AnotherJake Wrote:Hey, I just had another question, or thought: I was saying earlier that the cheapest I could see getting into iPhone development without an OpenGL ES simulator/emulator for it would be to purchase an iPhone and the service plan with that, but what about an iPod Touch instead? Would that be allowed? I missed anything at ADC that said it *had* to be an iPhone... If so, then that would at least bring the entry-level price down to $400 at current prices (including the $100 to join the club) which would not be free, but less dramatic.

iPod Touch is definitely OK. And, I wouldn't want my primary phone to be 'down for debugging'....

See http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/, it specifically says "Testing your phone on iPhone and iPod Touch"

Ah yes, there it is -- I knew I missed it! So entry level OpenGL ES iPhone development without a simulator is at least closer to the realm of feasibility then (grumble... could buy a new Xbox 360 for that price though). Of course that still wouldn't be until the end of June...

Basically if Apple don't open up the $99 thing to non-US people within the next few weeks a huge disadvantage has been given to the rest of the world for no apparent reason.

As Gruber said this is a gold rush. And apple has said that only US companies can take part, without giving any justification. Seems like arrogance to me.

I'm quite pissed off, but hopefully I'll obtain the beta 2.0 through other means anyway.

arekkusu - if OpenGL ran in the simulator (no matter how crude an estimation of performance that was) I could at least get started, in the hope that Apple opened up to the rest of the world, or I get a UK bank account by June.

reubert Wrote:'m quite pissed off, but hopefully I'll obtain the beta 2.0 through other means anyway.

My turn to quote myself... it would appear that there is no 2.0 beta released to any indie developers yet. Which I'm thinking means that no one (except EA etc.) can actually test OpenGL ES content in any way. Which actually makes me happy because I don't feel so disadvantaged.

I'll hold my breath a little longer

Well, with Intel required (I'm still PPC) and no openGL ES support in the simulator, My response is at this point "meh." I'll look into it again in June, when I'll be getting a new MBP. Given how much Jobs talked about openGL ES support and how great it is, I think its really odd that it is not yet supported. Is it supported through the $99 club with the "remote debugging" thing? Or not until 2.0 drops?

I thought it was very surprising how much Jobs talked about games, seeing as he usually shuns the topic. It would be awesome to see the iPhone/iPod touch become a big gaming platform. I know that the iPhone will never pose any real threat to the Nintendo DS, cause that thing is wicked cheap and already near ubiquitous, but I could definitely see the iPhone/iPod Touch becoming a rival to the PSP.
I was kind of caught off guard by the fact that the iPhone is powerful enough to handle Spore, and yet the DS is not, (and thus the iPhone is more powerful than the DS) though when I think about it I guess it makes sense.

ferum Wrote:...I was kind of caught off guard by the fact that the iPhone is powerful enough to handle Spore...

From what I saw in the quicktime stream, that wasn't Spore - it was "iPhone Spore" - the spore itself was entirely 2D.

hmm.. I thought one of the guys said something like "we actually have all of the levels implemented."

Well, this is less exciting than I'd hoped. Guess I'll have to wait for iPhone OS 2.0 in June to be able to do anything useful or interesting with it.

reubert Wrote:Basically if Apple don't open up the $99 thing to non-US people within the next few weeks a huge disadvantage has been given to the rest of the world for no apparent reason.

Yes, while reading the liveblogs I was thinking "OK, this is reasonable. This is great. That too. 99 bucks a year? Awesome!"

But then... while signing up I saw this:




I can download the SDK for free and use the simulator, but even if I were to make a kick ass application the *only* means I'd have to let other people install it would be by having someone in the US release it for me???

This sucks. Let's hope that the "coming months" mentioned in the small print is actually "before July, just like US developers". And that "other countries" includes mine, which I seriously doubt considering that the "Apple Design Awards" list of allowed countries of residence does not.

PowerMacX Wrote:I can download the SDK for free and use the simulator, but even if I were to make a kick ass application the *only* means I'd have to let other people install it would be by having someone in the US release it for me???

This sucks.

You bring up an interesting point though - if only U.S. developers are allowed to get it onto this store, I bet that there are some benevolent developers who would take your app and put it on the store without getting in the way of your development efforts. It is an extra hoop to jump through, yes, but at least the program could get out to U.S. users...
Hopefully this issue is cleared up though, especially since the iPod Touch is available around the world... right?