Torque

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Post: #16
Some really good accurate information here (good and bad) as well as some inaccurate.

Quote:1. No tools on the mac, which means you will always need a pc at some point to create your game.
2. The source code is a complete mess. They say themselves it takes around 8 months to learn torque. And even once you learned all about it, it's still hard to find your way around in it.
3. Support sucks. They don't attempt to answer the tough questions. Their mentality when you run into a bug is, if it breaks you get to keep both pieces.

That is the only post/comments in this thread that I think were unfair and shortsighted. Everyone else, even with negative comments, posted fairly and seemed open minded even if they didn't like Torque and it's work quirkiness on the Mac.

1. As people have said there are tools, just not the best tools. In all honesty this isn't necissarily our fault, considering we use standard formats for interiors that have been used in many games (we have a pretty good .map converter). Also on the modeling side many of the industry professional apps are supported as well as Blender (by our community).

On the other hand we are still trying to remedy the problem with Constructor. It is currently in beta 15, we are very dedicated to making it as solid as possible before releasing. In fact our hope is that even if you don't use Torque, that if you need a BSP editor you still use Constructor. This should solve the biggest issue in Mac development.

Though not having the best BSP editor is hardly a show-stopping issue if you want to make a game. If something like that will stop you, then quite honestly (even if a bit harshly) you probably won't have the motivation and perseverance to finish a complete and polished game, no offense meant.


2. The source code is not a mess. That comment is a very generalized comment. When you take a comment and generalize it like that it loses it's context, intent, and meaning. Some of the Torque source code is a mess. In reality this happens. We've updated many aspects of the engines and cleaned up quite a bit of it, though some of it still isn't up to what we want. If you've been in software development then you can understand, this happens. Sometimes on one hand you have clean source code, and the other hand you have a working product. In the end users want the latter, though hopefully along with the first. We do try to accomplish both, but with a code base as large as the Torque core it's not an easy task and in the end we have to seek a balance.


3. Well for one, since we only charge $100 we don't have an over-abundance of resources to offer. Though I find your statement false. Especially since I was a very active community member for a good year plus before coming on board at GG. I found the forums a great place for support and if you sent in an e-mail you often got a prompt reply. Though you may have to put some effor to help solve your own problems, this is a reality of life and of game dev.

Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames
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Post: #17
Quote:So my first point is. Whatever you choose, don't waste your money on torque. You will regret it.
Is there anyone who has actually created a game with torque completely on a mac? I dont think.

For one, just because you say it isn't so doesn't make it not so. Also why would someone limit themselves? Why would I not make a game I can sell on both a Mac and Windows, that makes no sense, especially for Indie developers.

Matthew Langley
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GarageGames
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Luminary
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Post: #18
I think you've missed the point there -- The deployment platforms aren't the issue here.

If you have a Windows machine and don't mind using it, maybe Torque is a fine choice. That doesn't change the fact that everyone we know who's ever tried making a game with Torque solely on a Mac has come away very disappointed with the experience, and without a game to show for it.

Maybe the situation will improve, I don't know. The fact remains that there are a whole lot of very satisfied Mac-only-using Unity converts, and a whole lot of bad will toward Torque, as a *development platform* for the Mac. There's no use in getting defensive about that. People feel how they feel, and have a right to say what they feel.
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Post: #19
Quote:I think you've missed the point there -- The deployment platforms aren't the issue here.

Maybe I did, though I think I failed to express myself properly. The only response I felt was going too far was the one I quoted, all of your comments as well as just about everyone elses, even though some are negative, I respected and felt were warranted; however, the points of the person I quoted were taking those same points and over-exagerating them and leading to false conclusions.

Quote:If you have a Windows machine and don't mind using it, maybe Torque is a fine choice. That doesn't change the fact that everyone we know who's ever tried making a game with Torque solely on a Mac has come away very disappointed with the experience, and without a game to show for it.

Part of my reasoning is this, if you deploy to a Windows machine you are definately going to need some sort of Windows machine to test from. If not then you probably need to reconsider deploying to Windows, and if you aren't deploying to Windows (especially using a cross-platform engine), then why not? If you can't get proper test machines (nothing fancy, very cheap and simple machines work well enough) then you probably don't understand developing a game and that some of the most extensive part of game dev is not the actual development but the testing. No offense meant (not really meant towards you, but towards people with those notions). Many finish 90% of their game and then finish. Mainly because the last 10% (often the majority being mass testing) is in fact at least the size of the 90%. Getting something working is the easy part, getting it working in every situation and testing every situation is the hard part.

"That doesn't change the fact that everyone we know who's ever tried making a game with Torque solely on a Mac has come away very disappointed with the experience, and without a game to show for it."

I'm sorry to hear that, though the biggest limitation with deving on Torque with a Mac is a quality BSP editor. Hopefully we can remedy that soon with Constructor. Though to let that stand in your way seems like a pretty foolish thing when you consider the prospect of making a game. Issues arise, tool quirkiness happens, you will run into it and if you can't handle with working around a BSP editor (maybe finding one that works well 'enough' or using a windows machine) then you probably won't be able to complete what it takes to fully create and polish a sellable game. Again no offense meant just point a ffew things.

We do have quite a few mac users in our community. Albeit many have some sort of Windows machine. Do you think there are many commercial all-mac dev houses, that they would avoid having a single windows machine if they plan on releasing on windows as well. Indies too often limit themselves since they are in fact Indies, rather then taking advantage of what they need to do to get what they want done.

Maybe the situation will improve, I don't know. The fact remains that there are a whole lot of very satisfied Mac-only-using Unity converts, and a whole lot of bad will toward Torque, as a *development platform* for the Mac. There's no use in getting defensive about that. People feel how they feel, and have a right to say what they feel.

Quote:Maybe the situation will improve, I don't know. The fact remains that there are a whole lot of very satisfied Mac-only-using Unity converts, and a whole lot of bad will toward Torque, as a *development platform* for the Mac. There's no use in getting defensive about that. People feel how they feel, and have a right to say what they feel.

I'm not getting defensive so much as providing counter-arguments and counter-information. Sure they have a right to say what they feel, though I don't? Some pretty brash comments were made mixed with lots of opinion, I simply am responding to those with some of my own experiences and information, nothing more. Nothing to get defensive about, I simply am providing counter-information. I beleive people should hear both sides of the argument, rather than just one, unless you disagree?

Matthew Langley
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GarageGames
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Luminary
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Post: #20
You're marketing a $100 tool as "cross-platform" to hobbyist developers, and you want to claim that they "don't understand developing a game" when they don't then want to shell out another $600 on a Windows machine so they can actually use their $100 piece of software, and feel that they've been mislead?

If you think that the majority of people here are in the "serious indie" bin, with a set game design, a business plan, and the intent of making a profit you're sorely mistaken. And if you think that your product isn't suitable for hobbyists, learners, and starry-eyed teenagers, maybe you should reconsider the marketing.

Amusingly, Unity, being marketed far more toward the "serious indie" developer, actually delivers far more of use to the hobbyist or learner...
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Post: #21
Matt, your representation here is definitely appreciated! I've seen that you guys really do put in a lot of effort for the Mac platform. Torque just doesn't quite have what it takes for many of us to recommend it here yet though.

Matt Langley Wrote:1. As people have said there are tools, just not the best tools. In all honesty this isn't necissarily our fault...
No, but not making that situation crystal clear to potential customers on the Mac has garnered some ill-will, and that *is* your fault.

Quote:On the other hand we are still trying to remedy the problem with Constructor...
Constructor is going to be a fantastic improvement to the Torque game development platform on the Mac if it delivers as promised. But it isn't available yet. Until it is, the tool situation remains the same on the Mac: not good. None of us who know better can recommend otherwise.

Quote:2. The source code is not a mess. That comment is a very generalized comment...
Well, I have to disagree entirely on that point. Considering the latest code metrics I happened to catch last time, it would be impossible *not* to generalize! The source code is definitely a mess. In fact, I would argue that there are several metric tons of code that needs to be removed before anyone in their right mind could even start considering [gasp] cleaning it up. In all fairness though, it is definitely rather large, and can be worked with directly if you have enough experience. But if you want a clean codebase to learn from/work with, don't assume you'll find it in Torque. Again, while this may be a generalization, it is aimed at persons who may not understand the finer points of what they may be looking at. `Messy' communicates what they need to know just fine.

Point 3 is hazy. It is hard to argue that GG support on the Mac is there when it doesn't really seem to be there. Minimally yes, but not like you'd find with Unity. Again, Torque is primarily a PC game dev platform and the support that has been experienced by many here has been exactly that.
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Post: #22
Quote:You're marketing a $100 tool as "cross-platform" to hobbyist developers, and you want to claim that they "don't understand developing a game" when they don't then want to shell out another $600 on a Windows machine so they can actually use their $100 piece of software, and feel that they've been mislead?

For one I'm not marketing anything. I am not part of the marketing team, I am a dev.

"You're marketing a $100 tool as "cross-platform" to hobbyist developers"

Now you say I am, but I'm simply responding to someone who said this:

Quote:It sounds extreme but seriously, if you value your time and your goal is to ship a game, Unity is the way to go.

I'll repeat "if you value your time and your goal is to ship a game"...

So obviously I am not making comments to those who just want to be hobbyist developers. Please take a step back and re-read what you think I am responding to... I did even try to ensure anyone would mix up my comments by saying:

Quote:The only response I felt was going too far was the one I quoted, all of your comments as well as just about everyone elses, even though some are negative, I respected and felt were warranted; however, the points of the person I quoted were taking those same points and over-exagerating them and leading to false conclusions.

So you are arguing a point I am not defending Smile In the respect of "hobbyist developers" I agree with you completely and probably wouldn't recommend Torque as the top choice until Constructor is out, but then again I'm not making that argument, you simply thought I was.


Quote:If you think that the majority of people here are in the "serious indie" bin, with a set game design, a business plan, and the intent of making a profit you're sorely mistaken. And if you think that your product isn't suitable for hobbyists, learners, and starry-eyed teenagers, maybe you should reconsider the marketing.

Again I never said any of that, you assumed I did, please re-read my clear target, especially since we agree on many points.


Torque Game Builder is our engine that is targeted at all markets, including Hobbyist... not so much Torque Game Engine, especially for Mac developers. Though we aren't talking about TGB specifically which is why I never claimed anything towards the hobbyist developers, only what the original quote I responded to was.

Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames
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Post: #23
Quote:No, but not making that situation crystal clear to potential customers on the Mac has garnered some ill-will, and that *is* your fault.

No it isn't... that would be like saying people who assumed Photoshop was a 3D modeler, then bought it and realized it wasn't was Adobe's fault. We don't mislead people and we don't lie. We have public sources of information in which you can get a full supported exporter list for all asset pipelines. If you don't do your research and read the information that is available how is this our fault? We never claimed those things so how can we be blamed for peoples assumptions.


Quote:Constructor is going to be a fantastic improvement to the Torque game development platform on the Mac if it delivers as promised. But it isn't available yet. Until it is, the tool situation remains the same on the Mac: not good. None of us who know better can recommend otherwise.

Like I said, let me repeat it again I think some of you skipped over it...

"That is the only post/comments in this thread that I think were unfair and shortsighted. Everyone else, even with negative comments, posted fairly and seemed open minded even if they didn't like Torque and it's work quirkiness on the Mac."

I then also tried to repeat the same thing again to make sure people didn't assume my very cleary pointed comment was general:

"The only response I felt was going too far was the one I quoted, all of your comments as well as just about everyone elses, even though some are negative, I respected and felt were warranted; however, the points of the person I quoted were taking those same points and over-exagerating them and leading to false conclusions."


Have I not made it clear that the simple quote I responded to was the only complaint I didn't think was warranted. For one some of the points were invalid in my opinion and the way they were phrased was more opinion than an actual problem. I think the rest of the points are quite valid and even some of the quoted points are valid, just the way they are said and exagerrated make them invalid. Please don't assume I'm referring to comments and people I'm not, please read my comments completely.


Now back to your Constructor comment. I agree. I wouldn't suggest you recommending it until you are comfortable with doing so and I don't blame you for it. You are defending a point I never made. I simply said

"On the other hand we are still trying to remedy the problem with Constructor..."

Which was meant that even though the tools issue wasn't technically our fault, we are still working long hours trying to solve it. We do value our Mac developers and are trying to provide adequate art pipeline options.


Quote:Well, I have to disagree entirely on that point. Considering the latest code metrics I happened to catch last time, it would be impossible *not* to generalize!

How would it be "impossible not to generalize"... in truth, unless you have read every single line of code in Torque (over half a million lines) then it would in fact be "impossible" to accurately generalize. Generalization is a way for people to falsely claim a specific point as widespread. I don't argue it is a valid point, just that I've seen many areas that it is not true in so from my experience the generalized comment 'cannot' be valid.


Quote:But if you want a clean codebase to learn from/work with, don't assume you'll find it in Torque. Again, while this may be a generalization, it is aimed at persons who may not understand the finer points of what they may be looking at. `Messy' communicates what they need to know just fine.

I'd partially agree with that. THough I've found parts of Torque that are far from messy. Also there is not standard code metric. Many commercial coded software has very light coding and on the other hand I find Torque's code fairly easy to follow (the majority of the time). Of course there are areas that are horrid as far as comments and being able to follow... though this is true for just about any commercial and/or indie product out there.


Quote:Again, Torque is primarily a PC game dev platform and the support that has been experienced by many here has been exactly that.

Very true and in fact I never said it wasn't. PC is still our primary seller so why would we not put most resources on the PC end. Though we have increased support on the Mac end. In fact if you check out any recent released you will notice a lot of Mac fixes and much better Mac support, on the forums as well.

Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames
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Post: #24
Matt Langley Wrote:In the respect of "hobbyist developers" I agree with you completely and probably wouldn't recommend Torque as the top choice [...]

[...]

[...] Hobbyist... not so much Torque Game Engine, especially for Mac developers. [...]

There we go. So, now that everyone in this thread agrees, can we move on?
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Post: #25
Quote:There we go. So, now that everyone in this thread agrees, can we move on?

Definately, though I'm still curious on people's responses to my actual post (as well as yours). AnotherJake you had some good points.

Matthew Langley
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Post: #26
Matt Langley Wrote:No it isn't... that would be like saying people who assumed Photoshop was a 3D modeler, then bought it and realized it wasn't was Adobe's fault. We don't mislead people and we don't lie. We have public sources of information in which you can get a full supported exporter list for all asset pipelines. If you don't do your research and read the information that is available how is this our fault? We never claimed those things so how can we be blamed for peoples assumptions.
When I purchased a license a few years ago, Garage Games did not make available any information that would indicate that all of the tools necessary for creating a game with Torque were not available [edit: and to be clear, they were NOT available at that time]. To my knowledge and recollection, the only way to have known this was to purchase a license, which would subsequently grant access to the Mac dev forums where that information was being shared. Because of that, ill-will was generated, and I maintain: That was your (Garage Games) fault, not ours. I am aware that the situation is somewhat different now, but even you admit (if I may interpret it this way) that the tool situation on the Mac is rather frustrating. Back then it was flat-out unacceptable, and the general consensus is that GG has continued to remain a little dodgy about it -- no offense intended.

Quote:Like I said, let me repeat it again I think some of you skipped over it...
Your elaborate dissection of the originally quoted poster's first point had some information in it that I wanted to respond to. This is, after all, a forum, not a Garage Games Q&A Wink

Quote:...even though the tools issue wasn't technically our fault, we are still working long hours trying to solve it. We do value our Mac developers and are trying to provide adequate art pipeline options.
This is true, and that's all you really had to say in the first place Smile
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Post: #27
Quote:When I purchased a license a few years ago, Garage Games did not make available any information that would indicate that all of the tools necessary for creating a game with Torque were not available [edit: and to be clear, they were NOT available at that time].

Well in all honesty of course not... Torque has always been a "Game Engine". Game Engine's typically don't have 3D modelling programs, texture creation programs, animation programs, etc etc... that is what Photoshop, 3DS Max, and Maya are for.


Quote:To my knowledge and recollection, the only way to have known this was to purchase a license, which would subsequently grant access to the Mac dev forums where that information was being shared.

Now I can sympathize somewhat with you, but I cannot agree with that being the only way. Did you try posting on public forums? Also you could always have even sent an e-mail if you were unsure.

Quote:Because of that, ill-will was generated, and I maintain: That was your (Garage Games) fault, not ours. I am aware that the situation is somewhat different now, but even you admit (if I may interpret it this way) that the tool situation on the Mac is rather frustrating. Back then it was flat-out unacceptable, and the general consensus is that GG has continued to remain a little dodgy about it -- no offense intended.

No offense taken. In fact I'd admit GG used to be very dodgy about it. I was in the communtiy for a good while before coming on board and I definately saw it. Now the story is a bit different. Looking back often doesn't do anyone any good though, we have (and they have before I got here) tried and put a lot of effort towards rectifying as much of that as possible. Though you can also not tell me there were never any acceptable BSP editors that could spit out a .map format. Though the tools on the mac end aren't ideal, they are still there.


Quote:Your elaborate dissection of the originally quoted poster's first point had some information in it that I wanted to respond to. This is, after all, a forum, not a Garage Games Q&A

Agreed. Remember, I never made this a GG Q&A lol. In fact I didn't want it to be. I simply posted a response to someones comments that I thought were wrong. That's it. Everyone else made it a Q&A, on top of that based on assumptions just because I work for GarageGames. Do your moderators and community typically discriminate and make on assumption about peoples comments, not based on what they actually said but what their affiliations are? I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but thats what I've seen. I simply came in here and posted a response to someone and I got hammered about points I never made lol.

If it became a GG Q&A it was definately not my fault, re-read my first post. Nothing in there demanded it to become one. If anything I'm a bit shocked. I've posted on GameMaker forums, The Game Creator Forums, and a wide variety of other general programming and dev forums and this is the first one that I've gotten a distinct response based on my affiliations. I'm just a poster with experience with some game tech, the same as everyone else, so I'm surprised I'm treated differently. On the other hand I think you made some good points. If anythign the moderators responses are what really surprised.

Matthew Langley
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GarageGames
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Post: #28
Btw I respect Mac Game Developers, which is why I'm here. Just figured I had a right to post my experience just like anyone else Smile

Matthew Langley
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Post: #29
Matt Langley Wrote:... I'm just a poster with experience with some game tech, the same as everyone else, so I'm surprised I'm treated differently. On the other hand I think you made some good points. If anythign the moderators responses are what really surprised.
... uh... well, I guess yer sig kinda gives it away; especially in response to a Torque splat on a thread.

The moderators here are the best in the biz yo. No, seriously though, OSC is pretty sharp-tongued at times, but he's smarter than Spock, so watch out! I don't recall any GG reps around here before, so if you do a forum search on Torque you might not be so surprised at the response you've just been, er, welcomed with.Wink Don't worry though, we're not haters, and the language is moderated to be civil.
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Post: #30
Quote:... uh... well, I guess yer sig kinda gives it away; especially in response to a Torque splat on a thread.

True, I know 'why' I was treated differently, I simply just don't agree with it. If someone comes to GG forums as says they like Unity and posts some comments on peoples claims of what Unity does I wouldn't be extra harsh to them or treat them different if they were Unity devs.

I hold forum moderators to a higher level of conduct and expectations. The way OSC "greeted" me was definately below those expectations. I understand no hatred behind it, but still it was inappropriate (at least in my opinion). Ahh well, in any case thanks for the greeting and you do have some very good points.

Quote:Don't worry though, we're not haters, and the language is moderated to be civil.

Good to hear.

Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames
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