Graphic Programming for Games

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Post: #16
Quote:I wish there existed a set of statistics showing how many individually attempted games have been abandoned, how many finished and how many were marketed successfully. I really do think this is at the crux of any such discussion. If these facts were available we would all know where we stand in the game making scheme of things. We may like to think of ourselves as professionals vs. being labeled "hobbyists", but professionals actually produce things and usually are able to get money for what they produce. I think, factually speaking, that nearly no marketable games are finished by individuals, yet, there are tens of thousands of individuals who are working on one kind of computer game or another, as we speak. That says to me that most of us are really serious hobbiests of one kind or another.

So, here is a product that does not "keep up" with all of the demands of the kids who buy video games and "use them up" in a matter of weeks; featuring the latest technological advances, that took several years and several scores of professionals to write and produce. So what? Why do individual game produces aim so high with so little chance of success? Better go to Vegas, instead.

If you visit websites like gamedev.net, yeah, the actual productivity of the average member is very very low, say only 10% ever released a game, free or not, and most wonder in the dream of the MMORPG they're going to make. People here tend to be much more focused and aware of their limits.

©h€ck øut µy stuƒƒ åt ragdollsoft.com
New game in development Rubber Ninjas - Mac Games Downloads
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Post: #17
brucegregory Wrote:...Or, alternately, we can turn our efforts to learning to code and, after several years of study, produce the next "killer" version of tic tac toe.
...
You're either very slow at learning, or you exaggerate way to much. And hey, programming isn't for everyone. I'd be floored if my sister came up to me and started spouting our gibberish about OpenGL and vertex arrays.

Man... you came to the wrong community to buy out. We're called programmers. And on top of that, we're called game programmers. Let me explain. First off, true programmers hardly like to use proprietary software to do their dirty work. Most of us consider that cheating. We also LIKE chasing that rainbow. It's pretty, and it promises lots of goodies at the end. As a game programmer, we still don't want to use proprietary software. The things we do will be more efficient if we code it ourselves. That's not to say that we're experts, I certainly am not. But there are many people here who are pushing the limits of technology and can BECAUSE they are coding the stuff themselves. Game programming is not something you can add a little water too and stir for 5 minutes. It's not something you can take out of a box and hit the on button. Its unique in just about every scenario, and it's OUR job to figure out the best approach. Seems to me your selling the equivalent of a "get rich fast" blue screen tv ad. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say thanks, but no thanks.
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brucegregory
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Post: #18
Volte:

Actually, this is no means to get rich quick or even slowly. Nobody seems to be getting rich, individually, blue screen or not. The point I'm trying to make is that most people involved in TRYING to make a game rarely ever finish the dang things. Wouldn't it be nice to have something "tangible" to show for your efforts? And, you are right, this is the wrong crowd of people to try to sell this particular product to. More than trying to bamboozle you, I'm really looking for honest opinions from those of you who have spent a lot of time dealing both with making games and with the people who WANT to make games. I think it is to the latter crowd that the product has a chance of appealing to. And people who are deeply entrenched in creating graphics, both 2D, 3D and animation, might want to expand their horizons with a visual set of gaming tools. Many are tired of creating static or linear art and want to make their creations "do something".

About doing things from scratch. I've got some experience with this. I work with wood, as a partial occupation. Specifically, I work wood on a lathe. I try to sell my work, whenever possible. I also carve wood using only non-motorized hand tools. Both kinds of wooden products are attractive, both kinds are functional, but I really like to carve wood more than I like to turn wood. Unfortunately, it takes about 5 times longer to carve a similar piece, from scratch, than it does to cut it on a bandsaw and then turn it on a lathe. And, also unfortunately, both products sell for similar prices. So, if I want to do the thing I like, I carve wood as a hobby, but I use the lathe and the bandsaw if I want to sell, at some kind of profit, the things I make. I like to chase the handmade rainbow, so to speak.

Greg Smith
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Post: #19
I can't speak for others, but I personally will be making a framework and application to help myself out. In this suite I'll be making for myself (and will most likely be offering freely for others), there will be an application to import 3D models (most likely in .lwo format), add the information necessary to create 3D stencil shadows using a vertex shader I will make, add collision surfaces, and construct animations. The framwork will then make it easy to import, draw, and animate these models as well as check for collisions. So, if you will, I'm making the lathe myself. Though I like to do things on my own, that doesn't mean that I will be re-inventing the wheel every time. I will create my own modules for the most basic parts of the game, then have everything else more specific to the game that I'm using. (such as controls, physics, etc.) What you are proposing is a much higher level module, where it basically does everything for you and you just add the content. The problem is, when you are trying to provide so many of those high level parts, it also limits your options. Plus it's more fun to say you did it all yourself. Wink
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Post: #20
So are you talking about remarketing http://www.mindavenue.com/
Which is as you said in another thread failed but did most things correctly.

Cause everything you have talked about seems like it?

Products similar... maybe change that to products you might be competing with?

Unity

Anark http://anark.com/

Cosmos Creator ( I think this has been bought )
http://www.radishworks.com/CosmosCreatorInfo.htm

http://www.3dgamestudio.com/

Torque3D
Torque2D http://www.garagegames.com/products/62

Blitz Basic http://www.blitzmax.com/

Dim3 http://www.klinksoftware.com/

RealBasic

Dark Basic http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/

Xcode + SDL.

Director/Flash

PlayKode

BANG! if I ever finish it Wink

Anyhow all of these tools are in some way RAD systems that give the use a good leg up on coding games in scripts of purely visual.

They all work to lower the cost of entry into game development which is honestly
really hard work.


Culling...
I guess a major issue is can I make a scene of movie that is a decent size umm
level?

Like say I wanted to move around part of a city?

A big barrier to apps like this is that people will see a game and want to be able to make something like that.
Give that I think that most games tools need to be maybe not cutting edge but at least up to the average in engine tech.

Anyhow do you have an actually business plan around releasing this tool?
Or is that what you are trying to formulate now?

BTW I tried sending you an email directly cause I would like to take this conversation off of the message board.

- Mac Lead ZeniMax Online Studios
- Owner Plaid World Studios
- Resume: http://www.chrisdillman.com
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AlStaffieri
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Post: #21
This is a bit of an old topic, but I thought I'd chime in.

I have not seen your program, but here's a general idea based on my own experience in selling game creation programs. $129 is probably too high. Professional programmers won't want it and it's too expensive for hobbyists. Depending on how good it is, it probably needs to be in the range of $25 to $85. More than that and they will opt for other more well known programs even if they are harder to use or won't do what yours will.

Forget about asking for opinions. You will get the entire spectrum. Professional game programmers will tell you that it's total crap and not worth even 1 cent while younger want-to-be game programmers who can't code much and their parents will love you for making something that they can actually make a game with.

Al Staffieri Jr.
AlStaff@aol.com
http://www.macgamemaker.com
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Post: #22
well, I personally would not be intersted in it. I have fun working my way through my c and openGL books. Also, I was under the impression that this was a comunity of serious programers, not some random gamers who thought that it would be cool to wipe up a computer game in a weekend.
I agree with AlStaffieri, serious programers won't want it. You would probably want to market it to a younger audience.
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Post: #23
AlStaffieri Wrote:This is a bit of an old topic, but I thought I'd chime in.

I have not seen your program, but here's a general idea based on my own experience in selling game creation programs. $129 is probably too high. Professional programmers won't want it and it's too expensive for hobbyists. Depending on how good it is, it probably needs to be in the range of $25 to $85. More than that and they will opt for other more well known programs even if they are harder to use or won't do what yours will.

This thread is long since dead...

The original author has moved on and actually taken up using Unity

See http://www.otee.dk/

Unity is a Pro level tool.

And is actually selling at much higher price.

Which means people are willing tp pay for a much more high end product.

This is also backed up by the number of high end tools selling on PC for 2000-3000 a copy.

So I do not think your sales experience are comparable because the products are
not of the same level... as you basically say below.

[quote]
Forget about asking for opinions. You will get the entire spectrum. Professional game programmers will tell you that it's total crap and not worth even 1 cent while younger want-to-be game programmers who can't code much and their parents will love you for making something that they can actually make a game with.
/QUOTE]

Unfortunately game maker is not a pro level tool.
So in that sense it might be called crap.

But your right parents love it.
Cause it is simple and easy to use.

That is what your market should be or should have been.
A tool for kids marketed that way.

That is a respectable market to be in.

Even more so if you mainly announce your tool as being for kids.
It would probably get more respect

Yes I have seen forum posts etc that are negative to game maker in the past.

You do need to check out Unity.
Even the app that the original author was talking about bringing
over was on a level much closer to what unity is vs what game maker is.

- Mac Lead ZeniMax Online Studios
- Owner Plaid World Studios
- Resume: http://www.chrisdillman.com
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AlStaffieri
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Post: #24
ChrisD Wrote:This thread is long since dead...

I admitted it was a bit old, but the original authors last post was only a bit more than a month old. I don't consider that long since dead.

Quote:Unity is a Pro level tool.
And is actually selling at much higher price.
Which means people are willing to pay for a much more high end product.

I never said people are not willing to pay for professional tools. They absolutely are. I based my opinion on his posts. He said it was an old program, old technology, it wasn't meant for making state of the art games, and he didn't plan on updating it. Those statements definately put it in the hobbyist market and you're not going to be able to charge very much for something that is old, outdated, and not going to be updated much if at all. I realized that it was not the same type of program that GameMaker is. I was comparing based on the same market... hobbyists. Also you mention he has already moved on. That means it never going to be a pro tool if the author loses interest that quickly.

Quote:Unfortunately game maker is not a pro level tool.
So in that sense it might be called crap.

But your right parents love it.
Cause it is simple and easy to use.

That is what your market should be or should have been.
A tool for kids marketed that way.

That is a respectable market to be in.

I never intended GameMaker to be pro level. The beginner programmers who want to jump in and start making a real game has always been what I made GameMaker for. I think some better programmers just don't understand that. Back when I had a forum on AOL it was marketed more that way with several hundred games made with it uploaded to the forum.

Al Staffieri Jr.

AlStaff@aol.com
http://www.macgamemaker.com
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Post: #25
[QUOTE=AlStaffieri]I admitted it was a bit old, but the original authors last post was only a bit more than a month old. I don't consider that long since dead.
[/QUOTE

Ah sorry you wouldn't have known.
Here is what happened there was 2 big threads both here and on the unity pages
plus a lot of off board emails and the company who own the product was approached about bring it back to market but they did not go any where.
In the end the author went on to purchase unity and learn that.

[quote]
I never said people are not willing to pay for professional tools. They absolutely are. I based my opinion on his posts. He said it was an old program, old technology, it wasn't meant for making state of the art games, and he didn't plan on updating it. Those statements definitely put it in the hobbyist market and you're not going to be able to charge very much for something that is old, outdated, and not going to be updated much if at all
[/quote]

Ok I see where you are coming from now.

Here is the actual tool.
Im not sure there was ever posted here

http://www.mindavenue.com/en/home/

[quote]
I never intended GameMaker to be pro level. The beginner programmers who want to jump in and start making a real game has always been what I made GameMaker for. I think some better programmers just don't understand that. Back when I had a forum on AOL it was marketed more that way with several hundred games made with it uploaded to the forum.
[/quote]

I think over the years I have seen marketing or web post that did not suggest that it was geared towards kids and that was the problem.

Where as if I saw marketing info that stressed that it is for kids it would have been able to avoid a lot of the negative feed back it tended to receive.

Speaking of game maker and coding for kids.
Im hearing a LOT of positive things about this PC app
http://www.gamemaker.nl/

Which we have nothing like on the Mac yet.

I guess it does a lot with icon based scripts.

Might be worth looking at for additional inspirations.

- Mac Lead ZeniMax Online Studios
- Owner Plaid World Studios
- Resume: http://www.chrisdillman.com
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