How many people here are interested in Unity?

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Post: #31
aarku Wrote:I see that as a feature in Unity's favor... because then artists can use about whatever they want and export to FBX and whatever else. I think it makes sense to leave it to the 3D apps.

I see that as a feature in my favor -- what I don't get is this -- my tools are designed to do the things that most modelers are missing; i.e., map subdivision and culling tools (portals) and bones and animations. Most model formats don't support that (nor should they.)

How do you handle animation in unity? How does it handle culling? I'm not trying to do direct comparisons or say who is better, I'm just curious, because a lot about dim3 is misunderstood, and I'm trying to figure out why.

aarku Wrote:As for things wrong with dim3... off the top of my head in rant form... The web page looks circa mid '90s (where's the whitepaper or something similar? I have to crawl through gigantic png screenshots.)

Noted, I need to work on that.

aarku Wrote:The engine doesn't seem general purpose. (You can attach scripts to weapons and projectiles for instance? That seems extremely specific.) Dim3 is as you say, made for Modders. Unity is made for people who want to make games. I think they are trying to be different things.

This is my problem, dim3 *is* general purpose (for games.) You can do 2D side scrollers, you can do top-down RPGs, you can do shooters, you can do driving games, everything you see is all controlled by scripts. That's the whole idea of the program. Evidently, I'm not getting this idea across. There are some things that are shortcuts for shooters, but you don't even have to do them that way.

For instance, in the car map where your player can step into a car for a drive, the "horn" is actually a weapon Smile

aarku Wrote:Dim3 isn't proven. (Is there anything released with it? I certainly wouldn't know from the website) You can script more than just your specific game stuff with Unity. You have access to the entirety of .NET! You've got a lot of power sitting there... it is really nice so far and there is lots of documentation and help online. You aren't limited to JavaScript. (Which is a fine language, I guess, but I love having both C# and JavaScript wherever I want) Unity will be able deploy to Windows very soon. That's huge. I don't know about dim3's workflow... it's not on the site... but Unity's is damn slick. It's saving me a lot of time, I know it.

dim3 will deploy on windows, and hopefully linux, in a little while. That's the next job, I'm finishing networking now.

aarku Wrote:That said, dim3's got shadows. You can do shadows with the Projector component (see the character shadow in Gooball) but not general purpose "click here for the object to cast a shadow"... yet. I'm also wondering about your bumpmapping and whether or not you have to provide your own normalmap, but that's offtopic. (You can generate normalmaps right in Unity)

-Jon

You supply your own.

Side note: I'm really not trying to turn this into a competition or do a "mine is better than yours." I do want to be the best, though, so I do need to find what people think of other engines and where mine can improve. Sometimes it'll sound like I'm comparing, but that's not really what I'm after.

[>] Brian
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Post: #32
heh brian, it's true you need a professional looking website. Not so much for games, but for tools definetely. It gotta look as serious as possible.

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Post: #33
Najdorf Wrote:heh brian, it's true you need a professional looking website. Not so much for games, but for tools definetely. It gotta look as serious as possible.

It's a piece of junk, I know Smile It's just moved up my priority list.

[>] Brian
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Post: #34
[totally OT] You might want to check http://www.oswd.org

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Post: #35
BTW, I apologize for "hijacking" this thread. When people talk about dim3, I always want to know what mistakes I've made and how to fix them.

[>] Brian
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Post: #36
Brian, what IU can point out is not a mistake on your part... I would, however, recommend you try to get work at an existing game studio to see how large, hi-quality games are made. This would give you input that is very valuable when judging how to do workflow & what people actually care about. Then make a game that is good enough to get a 3rd party publisher to publish & pay an advance for.

These are the two biggest things we did right with Unity on a meta-development level. Without having done either, Unity would suck big time...

In the meantime, I would very, very much like to know the community's opinion about Unity, so I would prefer if you could move the dim3 to a separate thread - no matter how passionate you are about getting feedback ;-)

Nicholas Francis
http://www.otee.dk
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Post: #37
NicholasFrancis Wrote:Brian, what IU can point out is not a mistake on your part... I would, however, recommend you try to get work at an existing game studio to see how large, hi-quality games are made. This would give you input that is very valuable when judging how to do workflow & what people actually care about. Then make a game that is good enough to get a 3rd party publisher to publish & pay an advance for.

I've actually gotten a number of offers from 'big' game studios, but I like the job I have an appreciate my freedom. That said, I did gather a lot of information from these people, and talked to a number of them.

The problem is, I think what a lot of them is doing is wrong; games are getting more and more expensive and shorter and more standard by the day -- and, most import -- becoming impossible for single-person shops to do development. I took what I learned there, and then applied it to trying to eliminate the problems in current game development.

That said, what I'm attempting is, in places, not what people are used to, but, IMHO, I think it's the future. I also need to run the line between what's good for workflow and what's good for the engine; for example, if you can use lots of different 3D tools to create maps, you run into the problem of maps that aren't optimized, which is why the high-end engines have their own tools. One helps the developer, but the other hurts the engine.

In the end, if the engine can't run maps efficiently, then the workflow is no good.

NicholasFrancis Wrote:These are the two biggest things we did right with Unity on a meta-development level. Without having done either, Unity would suck big time...

In the meantime, I would very, very much like to know the community's opinion about Unity, so I would prefer if you could move the dim3 to a separate thread - no matter how passionate you are about getting feedback ;-)

I'm sorry for the hijack, but dim3 was brought up outside of me in relation to unity, so I wanted to know what the comparison was.

[>] Brian
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Post: #38
Here's my two pesos, Nicholas. I think what you guys have done is really great stuff, maybe even the best there is for indie developers - on the Mac especially. I might be interested in taking Unity out for a spin myself. The copy protection thing is super-annoying to me. I realize I'm probably being a little irrational about it, but for some reason my mind just can't seem to accept it yet. Especially for the demo.

Okay, so silly irrationality aside, I have one major concern with your business model which I don't understand yet. Let's say you license the engine for $500 (a wild guess of an average between indie and pro licenses) and get 100 sales. That's only 50k. I just can't imagine that there is much more available market for you out there for Unity. I might be dead wrong about that, but am I? Maybe there is more market on the PC side of things, but there's also a lot of competition in that pond. I know you can make and sell games with Unity yourself for the bulk of your income, but I don't see how 50k is going to keep you guys interested in maintaining the technology for outsiders as well. Hopefully I couldn't be farther from reality on this and you guys make a killer profit from it, but I'm skeptical you'll earn enough income from Unity licenses to keep you going with it.
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Post: #39
ggadwa Wrote:I'm sorry for the hijack, but dim3 was brought up outside of me in relation to unity, so I wanted to know what the comparison was.

[>] Brian

You're a moderator so you have the power to split the thread and "make right" if you really are sorry and think something is a tiny bit out of place.

-Jon
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Post: #40
AnotherJake Wrote:Here's my two pesos, Nicholas. I think what you guys have done is really great stuff, maybe even the best there is for indie developers - on the Mac especially. I might be interested in taking Unity out for a spin myself. The copy protection thing is super-annoying to me. I realize I'm probably being a little irrational about it, but for some reason my mind just can't seem to accept it yet. Especially for the demo.

Okay, so silly irrationality aside, I have one major concern with your business model which I don't understand yet. Let's say you license the engine for $500 (a wild guess of an average between indie and pro licenses) and get 100 sales. That's only 50k. I just can't imagine that there is much more available market for you out there for Unity. I might be dead wrong about that, but am I? Maybe there is more market on the PC side of things, but there's also a lot of competition in that pond. I know you can make and sell games with Unity yourself for the bulk of your income, but I don't see how 50k is going to keep you guys interested in maintaining the technology for outsiders as well. Hopefully I couldn't be farther from reality on this and you guys make a killer profit from it, but I'm skeptical you'll earn enough income from Unity licenses to keep you going with it.

I think the creative community is a lot larger than 100 people. The closest comparison I can think of is Flash. The community interested or potentially interested in Unity is a lot larger than this site, I'm afraid.

-Jon
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Post: #41
aarku Wrote:You're a moderator so you have the power to split the thread and "make right" if you really are sorry and think something is a tiny bit out of place.

-Jon

No, I think comparisons are valid. At best, both products will learn something and get better, I know I certainly did. The point of a game-making community *is* to learn from each other. Topics sometimes go off in weird directions, but as long as they remain helpful to everybody, it's good. Part of what you think of a product *is* comparisons with other products.

I was basically trying to say it wasn't a hijack in the nicest way possible Smile

We, as developers, can get in our own little boxes sometimes. Frankly, I'd rather hear people savage my product then praise it; praise gets you no where.

(edit) that said, I'll make sure to lay out from now on Smile unless I have to answer further inquries, that is Smile

[>] Brian
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Post: #42
AnotherJake Wrote:but I'm skeptical you'll earn enough income from Unity licenses to keep you going with it.

I wonder about this too. But remember they don't just rely on Unity for income, I think they paint their faces and run down from the mountains at night raiding and piliging small villages for the wealth and women. I tell you they are breeding a Unity army!

I would do the same thing, but I would have to run up the hill and its not as effective.

Actually they do make games too.
Should that fail there is still the pilaging.

Maybe if Anark had taken that stance there would still be a Mac version.
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Post: #43
igame3d Wrote:Maybe if Anark had taken that stance there would still be a Mac version.

Is iGame3D going PC only?

[>] Brian
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Post: #44
aarku Wrote:I think the creative community is a lot larger than 100 people. The closest comparison I can think of is Flash. The community interested or potentially interested in Unity is a lot larger than this site, I'm afraid.
I'm not so silly as to believe that the whole Mac game development world revolves around iDG as you seem to be insinuating. My estimation of available Unity developers out there is not entirely based upon fantasy. If you've ever visited the Mac development forum for Torque you would notice that there really aren't as many out there as one might think. While it's not an entirely accurate comparison since Unity is designed to be *much* easier to develop with, I don't think it's an entirely whacked out observation either. So maybe Unity's market lies somewhere between Flash and Torque? I don't know. I would like to know more than just speculation to convince myself that they'll be around for a while.
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Post: #45
igame3d Wrote:Actually they do make games too.
Should that fail there is still the pilaging.
True. I'm just wondering if the pillaging will be fun enough to keep them working on Unity in the uncertain future. My wallet is a big fat chicken after going through Torque.
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