Game Design Schools

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Post: #1
My wife wants to move back to Taiwan, I'm guaranteed a job over there teaching English, the only thing holding me up is a Bachelor's Degree, so I'm looking at schools.

First, I could just finish my degree in Graphic Design, probably with minimal trouble and expense, but after over a decade in the business I loathe graphic design and can see myself discouraging everyone in class by telling them the truth about how the pay blows, the hours are horrible, and the majority of the jobs have already been shipped to China and Korea where people are paid $2.50 an hour to do the work I used to get up to $25 an hour for. So, naturally I'm looking into Game Design offerings....

I find some schools offering some game design or interactive multmedia classes and degrees, but then I also have to sit through classes like world religion, or economics and hey I already know college cost too much and the economy worldwide is in a hole and I've never been in debt in my life, i think I have my perseonal economics down to a science. There are other classes I don't see as being useful, for instance to get an animation degree at Jersey City College, I would have to sit through classes like Film Genre: Sci-Fi...watching sci-fi movies for $500?!?! Sci-Fi channel comes with cable!

Anyway this is what I have found so far:

Vancouver Film School, 1 year, no degree just a certificate, $41,000
Collins College 2 to 3 years, Bachelors in Game Programming or Animation, $55,000
College of New Jersey, 4 years Bachelors in Interactive Media, $24,000
Bloomfield College, 4 years Bachelors in Game Design or Programming, $24,000
Westwood College, 3 years Bachelors in Game Design or Programming, $65,000

These are estimates, not including books, housing, food, software etc.

Westwood college offers their degree online, so I could live rent free in Taiwan, eating scraps from under my in-laws table while my daughter gets an adequate education instead of being prescribed Ritalin in an American elementary school.

Other schools with online classes only offer an Associates degree or certificates which are useless to me in my planned future.

Still, I'm in shock, I just had to talk about it to keep my nerves from rattling my teeth out.
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Post: #2
spend the money supporting yourself while you write as many different games as you can and test them on as many people as possible. You'll probably learn a lot more about game design than a course can teach you.
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igame3d Wrote:First, I could just finish my degree in Graphic Design, probably with minimal trouble and expense, but after over a decade in the business I loathe graphic design and

If you just need a Bachelors, you might as well just get it in whatever field is the easiest for you, since it's just a piece of paper and a formality, anyway.

I guess it depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to go to all the trouble to get a degree from scratch for the sake of learning, I think you'd be better off just reading and experimenting; and if you want it to have a degree specifically in game design, you might as well get your graphic design degree, since it's about as good for getting a job as a designer.
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Post: #4
Yes, it seems the degree is a formality here. You need it only so you can teach English in Taiwan?

Personally, I wouldn't get a degree in game design, because it's incredibly specialized... computer science in an application to entertainment. Seems to hole oneself up a lot... but then, I'm all for well-roundedness.

What about straight-up Computer Science? Would an associate's degree be acceptable?

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Zwilnik Wrote:spend the money supporting yourself while you write as many different games as you can and test them on as many people as possible. You'll probably learn a lot more about game design than a course can teach you.

Not an option, I need a degree to work in Taiwan, and their is no financial aid for supporting oneself while making games.


phydeaux Wrote:If you just need a Bachelors, you might as well just get it in whatever field is the easiest for you, since it's just a piece of paper and a formality, anyway.
Well easy and compelling are two different things. I tell myself that graphic design is the easiest, but I know I won't have any inspiration to do the work. I tried a few classes, by requirement in college, that I had no interest in them, and I found myself not getting up for them, procrastinating,...anything to not be bored out of my mind in classes that had no relevance to my past, present or future. Did I really need a 450 pound man to tell me being overweight, lazy and a smoker will cause heart attacks? Did I need to pay for that knowledge? No I don't think so.


phydeaux Wrote:I guess it depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to go to all the trouble to get a degree from scratch for the sake of learning, I think you'd be better off just reading and experimenting; and if you want it to have a degree specifically in game design, you might as well get your graphic design degree, since it's about as good for getting a job as a designer.

Well I'll be teaching in Taiwan, so getting a job in game dev is not the goal, getting a industry savvy foundation is desireable though, also what they teach you in graphic design does not apply to game design, the industry does not use Indesign and QuarkXpress, or Adobe Illustrator, although if I had my way, iGame3D would be a plugin for those Smile

phydeaux Wrote:Yes, it seems the degree is a formality here. You need it only so you can teach English in Taiwan?
Yep, then I'll have about 4 to six hours a day free to make gamesSmile

funkboy Wrote:Personally, I wouldn't get a degree in game design, because it's incredibly specialized... computer science in an application to entertainment. Seems to hole oneself up a lot... but then, I'm all for well-roundedness.


Funkboy has some wisdom in that, but this is just what I would have gotten a degree in had it been available oh, when I was in 7th grade and if I could be the first eleven year old to get bachelors degree, believe me I looked in that big college book at the library, Now its ...TIME

Must remind myself I made $12.50 an hour making Marathon levels...which my daughter has running on her G4 right now, and that overtime Marathon money bought my second Mac. thinking positive happy memories Frong vent the blast core!

funkboy Wrote:What about straight-up Computer Science?
Nope, I'll never pass the math, never could, never will, if the math is not money oriented then it just doesn't stick in my skull at all, I've done some cool stuff in iGame3D with math, and can't remember how I did it after hours of trial and error.
Also I never really wanted to be a coder, well not since I picked up a Mac 21 years ago. Just looking at source code lulls me to sleep, even my own sometimes.

funkboy Wrote:Would an associate's degree be acceptable?

I wish, then i could be off teaching English in six months.
But Associate's degrees hold no weight accept for transfer credits, community colleges are also not accepted in Taiwan, damn they are picky.
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Nibbie
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Post: #6
I would disagree on Game Design being specialized. I mean what other course covers motion graphics, sound, cpu optimization and coding, 3D math, game design itself, database work, networking, fun (a tough one), input, as well as the other aspects of games that have not been mentioned. However, I doubt that this art is fully developed in most, if any of these schools. You are better off taking the David route or the Zwilnik route and doing one of the two:
A) Start coding games now for yourself.
B) Start coding games now for someone else who is more experienced.
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Post: #7
I'm not going to school for coding, why do so many make the assumption that game design is 100% code?

Character Design
Modeling
Animation
Motion Capture
Level Design
Environment Design
Sound Engineering
Plot, theme, and atmosphere

None of that is covered in your sacred code.

When I first came to this site there was no Unity, dim3, iGame3D, or Anark and I was preaching that there should be, that was three years ago.
The world is changing.
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Post: #8
Joseph Duchesne Wrote:I would disagree on Game Design being specialized.

You're right, it does cover a wide variety of areas. However, I imagine many companies will look at it and go, "so... your major is game design? How interesting... that has nothing to do with our company, good bye."
If you know video game design is all you want to be involved in during your life, fine, maybe that's an acceptable route. But even for me, though I love video games, I also like doing utilities and other stuff some, too... and lots of non-programming things as well. Personally, I'd say go for computer engineering if you can do a lot of math... but that's just me... Wacko

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All too often, art is simply the loss of practicality.
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Post: #9
i dontknow about taiwan, but getting a degree from "collins college" really ain't gonna hold up much in the USA. Yeah, you may learn some hands on stuff that you will use... but getting a degree from a big university with tons of competitions says alot. I mean, I always laugh at people when they go to technical school or DeVries online university or something like that. And I'm ambling because I am shitfaced right now, but when you get some specialized degree like that, you really are stuck in that business. If you get a 4-year bachelor's degree from a good school, at least you learned about some other shit that you could apply anywhere. anyway, i need to sleep this hangover is going to be hell.
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Post: #10
Bill,

Since you are heading to Taiwan, I think I understand your situation completely. Japan also has a requirement for a Bachelors degree in certain fields, like ESL. They do this pretty much to keep the riff-raff out of their countries -- though I've seen my share of misfits in the last 13 years in Japan!

So your wife wants to return to her homeland. Before making such a big change in your lives, have you explored alternatives? For example, have her seek out jobs at a Taiwanese company in the US? Have her go back for an extended vacation? (i.e. 3 months helps to recharge the batteries.)

ESL education use to pay big $$ in Japan, and no doubt in the rest of Asia. The demand has shrunk though. Overall, Japan still offers the highest salaries and best conditions. Taiwan shouldn't be too far behind. I hear South Korea is not such a great place to teach ESL.

What type of position are you looking at? In general, you can work for 3 types of places: (1) a company that runs its own English course for its employees (2) an ESL school (3) a higher-education institute. In #1, you have an easier time, and only teach adults. Though if you don't like the students, there isn't much you can do about it. Case #2 is the majority of jobs. Standards REALLY vary, so watch out because you could be walking into the worse possible job! (Or a great job) For the most part, private ESL schools are less demanding on your education/ESL background. Also, you will most likely need to teach kids. Don't be confused by (1) I like kids (2) I like to teach kids. For me, 1 is true, however, #2 will burn you out quickly! Last but not least, option #3. Here you teach students of higher levels. These jobs pay very well, but of course require a stronger background in ESL. Often a Masters is required.

So, what to do about your degree in order to work in Taiwan? My advice is forget "Game Design." IMHO, you can only learn so much from a "tape recorder standing in the front of a class." IMHO, you either have raw talent to think of new games or not. You mentioned a background in graphic design. Since I am heading back to the US, and most likely picking that up, I'm bummed to hear that the situation is grim for you in design. However, in Taiwan, you may want to rekindle your design career. I think living in Asia, you will become excited about design again, because it is so fresh and new. Likewise, your own designs may be very appealing and "different" to the locals. However, without having a grasp of Chinese, you will have it hard to interview with local companies. In this case, get the degree, and work at home! Do design work in the morning for clients over the Internet, and then teach ESL in the afternoon when kids are out of school/workers leave their jobs. This way, you have steady income from teaching, but don't do it so much that you get burnt out. You will get to do design, which I think you will appreciate more once in Asia.

While you are doing the previous "Carlos Get Rich Scheme", do a distance learning Masters degree in ESL. Once you have your Masters, then you can step up and teach in colleges. Make more $$ and work less!

At some point, you will want to combine your two areas; education/ESL with Multimedia, which == computer aided learing (CAL). So start or join a company in that indsutry.

Hope you can use some of this advice.

Cheers,

Carlos A. Camacho,
Founder
iDevGames
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Post: #11
LongJumper Wrote:If you get a 4-year bachelor's degree from a good school, at least you learned about some other shit that you could apply anywhere.

I'd like to see real world examples of this.
You mean a "liberal arts" degree?
By the way whats a "Good school", there are over a thousand colleges, universities and private degree granting institutions in the US. Tens of thousands world wide.

Aside from animators, game designers, and hmm animators and game designers, oh and people who teach animation and game design, I can't think of anyone who has ever went to college and got a degree that has a job that I'd ever want. Except maybe hemp farmers in Europe, thats something I'd like to do too, but not something I can't do in America.

Ten years ago I would have included, video, music, graphic design, tech support, beta testing, marketing, promotions, research, manufacturing, tour guide, writer, printing, t-shirt artist, oh yeah even a poet...but one way or another I've been there done that.
Mostly seen a paycheck from all that too, met some kind of people involved in all that.
Its been a long trange trip.

So now to fulfill the my personal goals getting paid as an animator, again, more frequently, and a game designer, again, intentionally and with my employers actual knowledge and approval next time, are the integral next steps to fit into place.
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igame3d Wrote:I'd like to see real world examples of this.
You mean a "liberal arts" degree?
By the way whats a "Good school",

My definition would be one that is fully accredited by whatever the important governing body is. Either a state-sponsored university or a fully-accredited private place... I would encourage a state school, myself, because they're much lower cost and still provide a good education.

Just don't get a degree from one of those degree mills - ones that charge a bunch of money and just hand over a degree.

Quote:Ten years ago I would have included, video, music
...
but one way or another I've been there done that.
Mostly seen a paycheck from all that too, met some kind of people involved in all that.
Its been a long trange trip.
Sounds like you're in the process of doing some real soul-searching. Make sure to give it ample thought time. I'm sure you are.

Quote:So now to fulfill the my personal goals getting paid as an animator, again, more frequently, and a game designer, again, intentionally and with my employers actual knowledge and approval next time, are the integral next steps to fit into place.
Sounds like you have a goal, too, which is probably the most important piece. Look at some state schools that offer 4-year degree programs, and see which ones offer distance learning... open up your sights from simply a game design major, and look at either graphic design or some light computer science or even a plain art degree. You can certainly make it in the business with a more general degree than just "Game design."
And make sure to look at Digipen, too, in Redmond, WA, on Nintendo's campus. It's expensive as all get-out, but a good school where grads get hired before they're done (and sometimes don't finish... Cry )

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All too often, art is simply the loss of practicality.
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Post: #13
Carlos Camacho Wrote:Bill,

Since you are heading to Taiwan, I think I understand your situation completely.
Japan also has a requirement for a Bachelors degree in certain fields, like ESL.
They do this pretty much to keep the riff-raff out of their countries -- though I've seen my share of misfits in the last 13 years in Japan!

So your wife wants to return to her homeland.
It is the most sensible decision, connections, cultural advantage, real estate advantage,
family. Look at it this way, if I want to give my daughter more, and I want persoanally I want to be more than my parents were, how is raising my daughter in New Jersey specifically to keep my daughter close to one set of grandparents, any more progressive than raising her in a whole different culture on the other side of the globe with another set of grandparents, while they are alive. Had my parents thought the way I did, i would have grown up in Hawaii, or the Pocono mountains...instead of suburbania.
Such are the things in consideration.
Carlos Camacho Wrote:Before making such a big change in your lives, have you explored alternatives? For example, have her seek out jobs at a Taiwanese company in the US?
She does work for a Taiwanese company....I removed my rant at starting salary $27,000, or gross $73.97 a day (-$30 rent a day rent & keeping subtracting....)
Carlos Camacho Wrote:Have her go back for an extended vacation? (i.e. 3 months helps to recharge the batteries.)
Did that for Antack.....If she leaves the country again, before
receiving citizenship, she won't get it, and will have to start the process all
over again if she decides to return to the states, in her words "For Alisa if she wants to move or go to school here". I can't talk her out of something like that, she's already been through hell and back to get the all powerful taxable employable status to the point that she has now, turning back would be cruel.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:ESL education use to pay big $$ in Japan, and no doubt in the rest of Asia. The demand has shrunk though. Overall, Japan still offers the highest salaries and best conditions. Taiwan shouldn't be too far behind. I hear South Korea is not such a great place to teach ESL.

What type of position are you looking at? In general, you can work for 3 types of places: (1) a company that runs its own English course for its employees (2) an ESL school (3) a higher-education institute. In #1, you have an easier time, and only teach adults.

I have a job offer with relatives and relatives of relatives. Pay isn't actually a concern ,accept when I'm looking at those college costs..then the money organs starts to hurt.
All the relatives, their friends, and their associates are in the education system, or have been in the education system, have their own schools, what have you. Its a crazy network. I'll be teaching adults to start.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:Though if you don't like the students, there isn't much you can do about it.
Yeah, exactly, but students cycle, its not like they are part of your job for 8 years, a year, maybe two. Whats that in when you know they will be gone and you will still have a job, unlike in the workforce, they may have already been there ten years, and they will never go away, and you never know when the lay off or logical limit of tolerance for the position will come along.
Carlos Camacho Wrote:Case #2 is the majority of jobs. Standards REALLY vary, so watch out because you could be walking into the worse possible job! (Or a great job) For the most part, private ESL schools are less demanding on your education/ESL background. Also, you will most likely need to teach kids. Don't be confused by (1) I like kids (2) I like to teach kids. For me, 1 is true, however, #2 will burn you out quickly! Last but not least, option #3. Here you teach students of higher levels. These jobs pay very well, but of course require a stronger background in ESL. Often a Masters is required.

If I was going to teach in a college it would be Game Design...not too many college opportunities for that. If I was great at math it would be nanotech/biology/pharmacology/botany.....and game design as one giant puddle of 3D green ooze. Smile

As for students again...I wrote a an admissions essay, it was for an intended art education degree with teaching certification (for nj) and on my wife's review she said "focus on students". But I've been out of college 12 years, been out of high school 17 years, been working from home with my whole social order consisting of a four year old , an asian woman and little avatars and text on the internet, my frame of referance for "students", is just not there. It will be something of a culture shock just becoming one again.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:So, what to do about your degree in order to work in Taiwan? My advice is forget "Game Design." IMHO, you can only learn so much from a "tape recorder standing in the front of a class."

I see i'm not the only one whose jaded. Smile

Lab time on a campus, with 30 other game designers...is not a tape recorder in front of the class.
Assignment + Research + Production + Critique is at the core of uDG, 21 days later, but the contests lack degree credits.
If I do it online, 10 weeks a class for 130 weeks, thats at minmum 13 focused uDG "themes", with a reward at the end that I can use for something I need

Carlos Camacho Wrote:IMHO, you either have raw talent to think of new games or not.
You know a few thousand people work on games, and they are not the people who "thought up the game", and thousands are employed, or get an income from not thinking of anything new or remotely original at all. As much as I would like to scheme and dream a new game everyday, completely copying some games (maybe even some movies) from my life's past in new media in the future is also very desirable.
You know the entire X-men comic books series needs to be redone as a 3D MMORPG!!!
Nothing original in that idea...but it has to be done, if it takes me 10 more years to get there. Smile HP Lovecraft's stories too, the need as many games as there are books and movies based on the mythology, its getting close. You get the idea.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:You mentioned a background in graphic design. Since I am heading back to the US, and most likely picking that up, I'm bummed to hear that the situation is grim for you in design. However, in Taiwan, you may want to rekindle your design career. I think living in Asia, you will become excited about design again, because it is so fresh and new.
No, I don't think so, actually the one thing I don't like about Asia is the constant barrage of graphics to grab your attention, its like every building has a popup ad, and i turn those off in Safari, why would I want to become part of that?

I could most probably get a job translating English for design companies, shouldn't be an issue, but only if I get desperate. They have crazy karaoke there, most of its from Japan though, I would get a kick out of shooting those videos in Mandarin in taiwan, would be too fun.
Carlos Camacho Wrote:Likewise, your own designs may be very appealing and "different" to the locals.
"graphic design", isn't appealing to me, at all. Its something to fall back on, but I don't want to fall at all, and if I do, I'd like to fall into something new first.
Carlos Camacho Wrote:However, without having a grasp of Chinese, you will have it hard to interview with local companies. In this case, get the degree, and work at home! Do design work in the morning for clients over the Internet, and then teach ESL in the afternoon when kids are out of school/workers leave their jobs.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:This way, you have steady income from teaching, but don't do it so much that you get burnt out. You will get to do design, which I think you will appreciate more once in Asia.
I'll be designing games and iGame3D when I'm not teaching English in Taiwan, you know what I'm saying... If I wanted to teach english and do graphic design in my spare time, why would I hang out at this website?? You so crazy.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:While you are doing the previous "Carlos Get Rich Scheme", do a distance learning Masters degree in ESL. Once you have your Masters, then you can step up and teach in colleges. Make more $$ and work less!
Thats not going to happen at all. ESL is an IN not the ultimate goal.

Carlos Camacho Wrote:At some point, you will want to combine your two areas; education/ESL with Multimedia, which == computer aided learing (CAL). So start or join a company in that indsutry.
I never want to "start my own company", If someone with a company who has business experience and patience to collect those accounts withstanding while still putting out payroll invests in me fine. But I've no patience for debt and others being in debt to me, especially no patience for filling in the details of proving that I'm not in debt to the government.

Think of it like, do you have the patience, resources, experience, and will to raise your own fruit trees so you can drink juice, or grow your own food? You need food, but you don't need your own business to thrive, if thriving doesn't mean simply amassing cash.


Carlos Camacho Wrote:Hope you can use some of this advice.

Cheers,

Its stuff to think about. If it was a decade ago...I'd be all over that design stuff.
You know back, when Photoshop 3.0 was revolutionary and 10GB hard drives the size of matchbooks were "expected within a decade". Now its Terabyte desktop drives by next year.... Wow
and if Photoshop starts compiling 3D games directly, I'll be in a state of bliss.
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Post: #14
If nobody reads this thread but once a year, I think, its all worth it.
So far, nobody has said they've done what I intend to do, so this
is a record of an adventure out of oldsville into the game education grid.
Theme for a contest?

funkboy Wrote:My definition would be one that is fully accredited by whatever the important governing body is. Either a state-sponsored university or a fully-accredited private place... I would encourage a state school, myself, because they're much lower cost and still provide a good education.
Yeah, that could happen, but I have to think about entirely different sets of sacrifices that i may or may not have to take at state schools especially for things that take time and currency away from game dev or from my family.

The schools I've listed so far have "accreditation", everybody claims to have this or that, what it comes down to now is what Taiwan will accept, oh boy!

funkboy Wrote:Just don't get a degree from one of those degree mills - ones that charge a bunch of money and just hand over a degree.
Damn, you know I was looking at that webpage, and was like, oh man if I could get away with a $550 Bachelor's Degree, I'd be just too happy.

If I could just take a test, like "Have you been doing something for over 20 years? How much do you know? Get up to a Masters Degree In it!" and that counted anywhere...man that would be the best!

funkboy Wrote:Sounds like you're in the process of doing some real soul-searching. Make sure to give it ample thought time. I'm sure you are.

Its a lot of variables.
funkboy Wrote:Sounds like you have a goal, too, which is probably the most important piece. Look at some state schools that offer 4-year degree programs, and see which ones offer distance learning... open up your sights from simply a game design major, and look at either graphic design or some light computer science or even a plain art degree.
I have experience in two, and even light computer science will ask math of me, I seriously, am pretty much doom to an existance of numberical difficulty, maybe.
Takes me forever...playing D&D with my daugther last night was mentally exhausting...just the math part of adding dice and subtracting hitpoints...the bowl and bottle battle vrs the jelly jar was pretty amusing.

funkboy Wrote:You can certainly make it in the business with a more general degree than just "Game design."
Yes but other degrees take focus away from everything I've worked towards. So I'm steering against that as far as possible, if all logical conclusions come to "fastest, simplest, most boring thing I can do without imploding", then thats what i'll end up doing. Stay tuned for more on the Game Design Degree show after this word from Funkboy.

funkboy Wrote:And make sure to look at Digipen, too, in Redmond, WA, on Nintendo's campus. It's expensive as all get-out, but a good school where grads get hired before they're done (and sometimes don't finish... Cry )

You know a Bachelor of Science in Real-Time Interactive Simulation sounds pretty interesting, and it looks like I only have to fail math a few times, and how many times really can one guy fail math? Smile hmm, almost $70,000 and living in redmond...isn't there a school in Vancouver, I feel like I'm forgetting someone.
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Post: #15
Would you go to school here?
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