Why good ideas beat good graphics

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Post: #16
skyhawk Wrote:1) good ideas beat good graphics for long term. If you want a game that is popular 4-5 years down the line, then your game better have some decent ideas behind it. Graphics will always advance forward, get better, or more stylistic, but a good idea can do so much more for a game and industry.

I'd make a distinction between GOOD graphics and STYLISH graphics. The majority of blockbuster games achieve the first and ignore the second. A game like Katamari Damacy doesn't have great graphics (I'm sure given the nature of the game they were required to use simple low poly models) but it oozes with style.

Of course, ideally a game would have both (Viewtiful Joe.)

skyhawk Wrote:3) in conclusion, idea will get you innovation points and replay value. graphics will get your audience initial attention.

The discussion seems to be drifting between originality vs. graphics and gameplay vs. graphics.

Gameplay vs. graphics is no contest. Ever see that commercial on Adult Swim for Robot Chicken? "Most one-sided fights in history?" The one with Optimus Prime slamming some chump into a brick wall, and the businessman beating the crap out of a baby in a carriage? That's the kind of no contest I'm talking about.

On originality vs. graphics, it's a closer race but I'd still go with originality. The majority of new concepts and objectives are fun- players will see this new gameplay mechanic as a challenge and at least play until it's mastered. However, there are some original games that I just don't find fun at all, and at least unoriginal games with good graphics sell.

Justin Ficarrotta
http://www.justinfic.com
"It is better to be The Man than to work for The Man." - Alexander Seropian
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Post: #17
the latest fun and original game i played is Paper Mario 2
i didnt played with paper mario 1
there is amazing graphics effect, like paper rolling, and the gameplay is fun its an RPG with some action. and there is a lot of surprise in it.

[Image: papermario1.jpg]
[Image: pm02.jpg]
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Post: #18
Here's my opinion:
Great gameplay is more important than great graphics.
You do need half-way decent graphics so that your game is not horrible.
I'm probably going to buy this "Revolution" thing.
I haven't programmed any games yet.
I prefer 2D games over 3D games because they are easier, funner, and end quickly.
I will probably dedicate my future programming skills to keeping the wonders of 2D (mostly side-scrolling) games alive.
Games are not everything, but the are a heck of a lot of fun.
Who has heard of Spore?

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⌘-R in Chief
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Post: #19
I think game play needs to be revisited for sure. Donkey Kong Country was freaking gooooooood game, not just because it looked awesome, but it was just addicting. I've yet to find a game like a more modern game like that.
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Post: #20
Blorx2 Wrote:Here's my opinion:
Great gameplay is more important than great graphics.
You do need half-way decent graphics so that your game is not horrible.
You are right, but there is one good reason to spend time on good graphics: If you don't, it gets too easy take over your market slice with a rip-off with better graphics.

But in my opinion, a game that is primarily praised for "awesome graphics" is something I leave on the shelf. If graphics is its strongest point, everything else must be worse, right? Huh
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Post: #21
Pong kicks ass. Discussion ended.

It's not magic, it's Ruby.
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Post: #22
Ingemar Wrote:But in my opinion, a game that is primarily praised for "awesome graphics" is something I leave on the shelf. If graphics is its strongest point, everything else must be worse, right? Huh
You mean like Doom3? Wink
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Superman2489
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Post: #23
I am a firm believer in Gameplay over Graphics. The heroes of might and magic series was a brilliant series (3DO) and Heroes III was the best anyone could hope for. Then Heroes IV came out. They sacrificed huge amounts of playing options for much better graphics. I stopped playing Heroes IV very quickly, but my friend still plays Heroes III for five hours ever sunday.

Second, I play MUDs. My friend has offered to give me his copy of World of Warcraft for free if I'll just play it, but I'd much rather play good games than need graphics to make the game better. http://www.deadofnight.org woot woot!
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Post: #24
Wow he must really hate it if he was going to give it away...

Games need graphics (text as a type of graphic to display words). If they did not have graphics of any form then you'd just hear a beep or music. Wait, that's actually a good idea...
Though, to get somebody's attention, you're going to need good graphics. Not ommaguddatsfukinamazin kind of graphics, just good graphics. In this day in age games such as eternal darkness seems to have good graphics in people's memories (unless they played it recently) and that is just because for the time; eternal darkness did have good graphics. Even though if you go and play it now, it could be classed as something that has graphics only marginally better than the Nintendo 64. It's the impression on the user at the time that counts. Most people remember the graphics as they were in comparison to the the persons expectations, not how detailed they are. And gameplay is very important, but it needs to be complemented by good graphics. If it isn't, then seeing things and knowing immediately what the things are based off real life becomes more of a chore than a subconscious thing.
All in all, gameplay is extremely good, but it isn't the be all and end all of video games. The innovation can be the way the graphics are shown, as is the case with viewtiful joe.
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Post: #25
socksy Wrote:Games need graphics (text as a type of graphic to display words).
createmacgames proved this wrong awhile back with their contest that made it so you could have NO visual feedback on anything...

while I agree MOST games need visual feedback, to simply say a game NEEDS visual feedback is false.
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Post: #26
skyhawk Wrote:while I agree MOST games need visual feedback, to simply say a game NEEDS visual feedback is false.

I'd also venture to guess that all the blind gamers out there would agree with you too.

http://www.gamesfortheblind.com/

The brains and fingers behind Malarkey Software (plus caretaker of the world's two brattiest felines).
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Post: #27
I'm tired, but I'm just going to throw in a quick, and probably not necessarily well-formulated, thought – that the majority of developers, whilst focussing on the attainment of realism in graphics, have forgotten how to achieve style in graphics, marginalising those designers who might break that state of affairs – that the majority of developer's are involved in an unecessary arms-race which can only, eventually, harm themselves.

As it seems you can't have a discussion about games without having to liken them to another medium, I'll liken games to books; not because they both share (at least tentatively) narrative elements, but because it's describing by difference – when did you last read a book where the author described every single last detail of a scene's environment?

They don't (yes, or at least not that often); the author focusses on those details for setting the mood of the scene, and those details which are integral to the plot (yes, they also don't describe every last detail as that would bore the reader); anybody care to name a recent PC (as this is where the main arms-race is being consistently run) game which followed a reasonably similar methodology?



Then again, I'm only really restating the opinion which every designer of some standing seems to be espousing at the moment; at least I believe it; but perhaps if enough developers start repeating those soundbit opinions...

Perhaps then developers would start to focus on those elements of this medium which make it unique.

Although I wouldn't put money on it...

Maybe we need an indie developer's manifesto Wink

Mark Bishop
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Student and freelance OS X & iOS developer
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Post: #28
Oh, and to quickly wander off on a tangent – where the hell have all the puzzles gone in the first-person shooter genre?

Yes, I buy a game of that genre because it's fun to drool and gun down endless ignorant armies, but I occassionally like a break from the monotony, yet can't think of any recent game of the genre which has more than a disguised "find the key" puzzle; and a lot of them don't even have that (I've just a short while ago been playing Killzone and one of the faceless Medal of Honour's; perhaps not good examples of the genre, (Killzoe eschewing all puzzle elements, not even a "find the key") but people have been buying the latter in droves...)

It seems that aside from the high-point of the original Dark Forces and System Shock (I mention only those as they both had quite different methodologies for implementing puzzles, there are other honourable mentions of various eras), the genre has reverted to the stage of gameplay evolution that the original Wolfenstein 3D occupied...

Mark Bishop
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Post: #29
sealfin Wrote:As it seems you can't have a discussion about games without having to liken them to another medium, I'll liken games to books; not because they both share (at least tentatively) narrative elements, but because it's describing by difference – when did you last read a book where the author described every single last detail of a scene's environment?

I think this is a really cool thought, especially in the context of modern console games. For example people brag about how much of a city they've defined to the last detail. Wow, that's really cool, but does it make the game better? Sometimes yes, most of the time it'll just be ignored by the player or completely overwhelm them once they get over the awe aspect.

I really, really like the idea of blind games too. Sounds like a uDevGames contest in the making Wink

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Post: #30
sealfin Wrote:Oh, and to quickly wander off on a tangent – where the hell have all the puzzles gone in the first-person shooter genre?

HL2 comes to mind.

There was a long silence...
'I claim them all,' said the Savage at last.
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