Sex, death and games

Feanor
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Post: #76
cosmid,

Maybe I was talking too different things at the same time, without realizing that. I tend to do that, and it's confusing. Mostly there's the player viewpoint and the designer viewpoint, and I think I was trying to make points about both, since a lot of the discussion here was drifting back and forth. I should have separated my messages.

I guess in any creative work, there is a duality in being both a creator and a fan/patron/lover of the artwork in question. I do believe that there is artistry in games, but it's very different than in other media, though the similarities with fiction and movies can be confusing.

I think I'm frustrated by the problems of integrating gameplay and story, and I think people understate the conflicts. The discussion of sex in games just brought that to the fore in my mind. Sometimes I think I'm coming full circle in my attitude towards game design, to a point where I'm now cynical of story-related elements, since the result is often a bad compromise. Trying to deal with sex really accentuates that, since all the aspects of sex which you can consider narratively and which are essential to creating characters in pure narrative work (novels, movies) are only doable in the story component of a game. Whereas in my deleted post (and another post) I commented on my interpretation of the close integration of killing and violence with the mechanics of gameplay.

I did not intend to downplay the value of imagination in narrative games. But I would like to strive for better integration of story elements with gameplay elements. Violence was easy and obvious, so now the challenge is to figure out how to include less simplistic aspects of human behaviour into gameplay itself. That said, a well scripted narrative is no less enjoyable, but these are different approaches, different technical problems.

I'm getting very stuck on the absence of language in games, which is so essential to relationships between people, and to revealing the relationships between characters. I have a literature background, so this is quite possibly a bias, but since story-telling is an even older practise than writing, and writing is five thousand years old, I think that there is a lot of authority in the rules of story-telling and literary theory, and a lot of power in language.

We had a debate last Summer where I tried to get people to consider if there were any new kinds of games, and we did not have much luck with that. But I could change that by asking if there are any new kinds of gameplay, and I could point at human relationships and ask, "Can't we base gameplay on other aspects of human behaviour?" But I think we figured out that the limitations are on the input/output system.

I think when someone comes up with a usable language interface for interacting with in-game characters (and by necessity characters which can understand this language), we will exceed the current limits. So, sex, friendship, mistrust and all the other grey areas of human relationships will be left out (of game mechanics, not story), and we'll be stuck with what I see as basically the "resource or obstacle" model for characters that I think exists now.

Sorry if I've hi-jacked this thread. I didn't realize what I was really thinking about until now. I guess I think that the original implication in the thread title -- that violence is allowed and sex is not due to moralistic reasons -- is misleading. Yeah, most developers avoid sex per se due to morality concerns which are unfairly looser on violence. But I think the imaginative failure of game developers has been to try to make a story-driven game without violence. I argue that this is very difficult because of the ease with which violence can be integrated into gameplay mechanics, while other human activities are difficult to integrate.

I guess the Sims and other Will Wright games are great exceptions, and that is why they (especially the Sims) have been so successful. But the Sims ignores what most hardcore gamers love, which is a defined goal that they can pursue relentlessly. Is there room for sex or other human characteristics in a goal-driven design? How can you take time to form relationships when your over-riding concern is to get to the next level, defeat the boss monster, get the better weapon/armour/treasure? In real life there are maybe three main analogues to level-domination: combat, sex, and career. Sex as an end in itself would be either gross or funny, never noble or honourable. And anyway, you can do it in real life.

Yeah, that was a point I made in my lost post: games usually involve doing things you can't do in real life. Kids play games where they do what grown-ups do but they cannot, and grown-ups play games where they get to do things that are utterly impossible or so dangerous that nobody does them by choice, and usually both. The (The Sims is again an exception, because you do things that you can do in real life. Actually, you're not doing them, your Sims are, and if you make a mistake, well, try again, no harm done. I don't think the Sims would work if you had to play a direct role in the Sim world yourself. It would be an interesting experiment.)

I'll stop now. I think I need to write a research paper on this subject, and get it out of my system.
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Member
Posts: 509
Joined: 2002.05
Post: #77
I haven't read most of this post, but if you want something to talk about go here

NOTICE : If you are easly offended by sex in atari games then don't click this and don't get mad at me

http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/custer.shtml

download the rom and play it... I can't beleve that this game was actualy released!:eek:
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Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #78
This is a sketch I made of a character in my game... (yes, he's a one-armed rabbit)
http://w3.oekakies.com/p/makube/36.jpg?36
I can't directly link it so you'll have to copy/paste. :eek:
Would people complain that he's not wearing very much? Bored I personally would find it silly to give him more clothes.
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Feanor
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Post: #79
David,

Help me out -- what's that debonaire-looking rabbit got to do with this thread? Is his lack of clothing supposed to be arousing? I myself am not into rodents, pleasantly furry or otherwise.

Just curious.
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Post: #80
He's definitely not designed to be arousing... I'm just wondering if the people here think along the same lines as those who want to ban Porky Pig because he doesn't wear pants or if they agree with me that it doesn't matter. This particular character has a reason for everything he wears and any more, I think, would be superfluous. I never even thought about it but a friend pointed out that he's not wearing much and some people might find that offensive, I'm just wondering if that's true.
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Post: #81
he's... a rabbit. I would think that as long as there are no reproductive organs sticking out, you're fine with 99% of the public, and the other 1% just like to be heard complaining.
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Posts: 353
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Post: #82
I always think that when people complain about cartoon animals not wearing pants then they are the ones with the problem. They must have a lot of pent up sexual frustration if they are thinking about sex when looking at something like that. How come they don't go around complaining when someone is walking their pet dog and it's not wearing pants?
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Hog
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Posts: 151
Joined: 2002.09
Post: #83
Quote:Originally posted by David

Would people complain that he's not wearing very much? Bored I personally would find it silly to give him more clothes.


well, he's definitely wearing too much for a rabbit. i find that silly
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Posts: 164
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Post: #84
Hehe true, but he has an actual reason to wear that. Basically this character's family was attacked by wolves, so his arm was ripped off, and he was left for dead. His mate and children died, but he barely survived. He wears the cape to hide his missing arm and the bandanna because his daughter made it, and the belt is just to hold his sword and dagger.
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griffin239
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Post: #85
http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=497

This article is about Hentai games.
It never even occured to me that someone would
make games of this stuff. But they really do.

The writer of the article had me laughing in stitches.

This is definately one of those things some people
would say if you are not over 18, you can't see.
But I'll just say if you don't know the birds and bees and
right and wrong, then, ask your parents for supervision.


Only Carlos could know....what the hell is wrong with the japanese?!?!?
How can they make and buy this stuff?
I know its not ALL of them, but obviously there is a market.
Or maybe the market is outside their culture?

I just imagine like a class of 30 art students in Japan
and half of them are drawing bondage/rape scenes.
With the teacher commenting "needs a bigger tentacle!",
"she looks happy, change that mood", "whats this Love stuff? make it violent!",
"look at Hiro here, now HE, is a Hentai Master! the rest of you can go slave for Disney"

Boggles my mind it does.
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Posts: 353
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Post: #86
What is interesting is I believe Japan has a very low violent crime rate compared to the Western world where entertainment like this is not as common.
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griffin239
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Post: #87
Japan has the highest teen suicide rate in the world.
And their kids are going psycho according to the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/asia-p...377781.stm

In 1994 they had closed a national park because it had become so popular for
people to kill themselves in it.

I was posting how the crime statistics for Japan
are created by under reporting then I started
digging up info to this effect.
here have a gander at this letter to the editor
http://www.biz2web.com/grant/times2.htm

They are just as violent and dangerous as any nation.
ssssh but don't tell, you might hurt someone's pride and they will
knife themselves ritualisticly.

Violence against women hasn't been considered a crime there until recently.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/d...xt/archive

You realise the implications of this? For the entire 20th century the Japanese
system has been brutal to women without any means of protecting these women.
Rapes and beatings go unreported because people know nothing will be done.

sssh it didn't happen. Now get on with your lives beaten and raped girls, get over it.

Not to be Japan bashing. Just don't believe the hype.


Oh on a note of interest in this topic as an American I've been
Mugged 7 times.
Assaulted on my own property twice.
Held up at gunpoint once.
Broken into 4 times.
Hunted by a mob at least three times.
Shot at by a drunk once.
Arrested twice for victimless crimes. (Cannabis seeds and walking in the woods..Blair Police Project)


For all the incidents of crime, the police were involved in 20% of cases.
of those cases Absolutely nothing was resolved,
no one was arrested.
I've never seen a police line up, or that neat book full of bad guys they show you on tv.

FBI, FTC, IRS, Local, State police, and prosecutors have never gone farther than saying "thank you for your information, if we ever get off our fat asses, we might call you."

Law enforcement in the United States is a joke.
No wonder its in the state that is:
http://members.cruzio.com/~spitzer/usNumberOne.





Hmm while digging around i found an interesting article about censorship...please read.
The data about violent movies and aerobics work out tapes is good for a laugh.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-jf-sx.html

The article overall though is enlighting.

Slap a censor for peace.
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Feanor
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Post: #88
Quote:Originally posted by monteboyd
How come they don't go around complaining when someone is walking their pet dog and it's not wearing pants?

The Onion had a great headline that went something like "Mormon Family Tries Best to Ignore Family Dog's Huge Boner". Grin I thought I was going to cry when I read that one.
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Feanor
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Post: #89
This is getting a bit off topic, but (in response to griffin239), I have to say (and was just saying to my Dad yesterday), I would *never* live in the United States without some overwhelming reasons. Have you people seen Bowling for Columbine yet? <Shudder> I guess the topic connection is that the Columbine horror was blamed in part on video games, whereas the boys were just as in love with bowling.

The United States is a scary place. I mean, it's beautiful, and there's lots of intelligent people there, but how easily one can find onesself in trouble. I live in the biggest city in Canada, and I have never heard of anybody getting mugged. We have bank robberies and murders and rapes, but something like 1/10 the per capita rate of gun-related murders compared to the U.S. We are having a problem with gangs lately and nobody knows why, mostly too many handguns (which are illegal without a permit). (Toronto has almost three million residents, and the Greater Toronto Area is around five million or so.)

Anyway, not that it is just the U.S. or that Canada is somehow immune or better exactly, but we seem to benefit from being less arrogant or angry or paranoid or something. In Canada I can tell you that it is pretty rare to hear anybody talking about wanting to have a gun so they can kill people robbing their house.

I hardly watch the news anymore, but I tell you it is harder and harder to concentrate on distractions like computer games when you start to become aware of how dangerous the world really is. Human beings really hurt each other a lot, on a regular basis. I think the whole planet needs a valium or something.
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griffin239
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Post: #90
Legalize Cannabis Smile

Canada's gang problem is directly related to drug laws.
Just like the United States.

You have the Hells Angels making mad profits on drugs,
just like we have gangs here making mad profits on drugs.

In New York City Marijuana costs more than gold.
Returns us to the roots of what "legal tender" means on our money.

Thing is with something thats on the black market worth so much
you have people fighting over it's profits. Bang bang, this is my turf.

Hmm kind of like the war for oil.

Sex and death and money and madness.
What a theme for a game.
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